SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

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Secret Alias
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SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

Post by Secret Alias » Sat May 25, 2019 8:16 am

“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

Post by Peter Kirby » Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:47 pm

Great news. This reference to the history from Seneca the Younger was, up until now, what we knew about the text.

https://latin.packhum.org/loc/1017/18/0#0
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Re: SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

Post by DCHindley » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:02 am

Are we getting our seniors & juniors mixed up?

de vita patris (cod. vat. niebuhr 103sq) is attributed to Seneca junior. But wasn't the fragment supposed to be by Seneca senior?

That site you kinked to does provide a full set of links to known or proposed works & fragments of Lucius Annaeus Seneca iunior:
https://latin.packhum.org/author/1017
[Bibliography] [SenPhil]
001 Hercules Furens [HerF] ►
002 Troades [Tro]
003 Phoenissae [Phoen]
004 Medea [Med]
005 Phaedra [Phaed]
006 Oedipus [Oed]
007 Agamemnon [Ag]
008 Thyestes [Thy]
009 Hercules Oetaeus [HerO]
010 Octavia [sp.] [Oct]
011 Apocolocyntosis [Apoc]
012 Dialogi [Dial]
013 De Beneficiis [Ben]
014 De Clementia [Cl]
015 Epistulae Morales ad Lucilium [Ep]
016 Naturales Quaestiones [Nat]
017 e Cleanthe versus [poet]
018 De Vita Patris [VitPatr]
[Boldface font and the word "Bibliography" are mine, thanks]
Yet here is another set of links to known or proposed fragments of Lucius Annaeus Seneca senior:
https://latin.packhum.org/author/1014
[Bibliography] [SenRhet]
001 Controversiae [Con] ►
002 Controversiae, excerpta [ConExc]
003 Suasoriae [Suas]
004 Fragmenta [frg]
[The word "Bibliography" is mine, thanks]
My takeaway from all the controversy I had read about Seneca senior was that many thought M. Winterbottom (The Elder Seneca: Declamations in Two Volumes, 1974) was wrong to attribute these last 4 to the senior Seneca, who may actually not have written anything at all.

But there is this: (Sarah Hendriks) The Latin Papyri from Herculaneum (abstract of paper presented at SCS 147 session 83.4, 9 Jan 2016)
https://classicalstudies.org/annual-mee ... erculaneum
"At present it is estimated that there are approximately 62 Latin papyri, catalogued in 120 separate PHerc numbers (Del Mastro, 2005). While epic poetry, a dialogue, and panegyrics have all been proposed on the basis of the Bodleian disegni, only 9 works have been identified in current scholarship: Carmen de Bello Actiaco (PHerc 817), Oratu in Senatu (PHerc 1067), Lucio Manlio Torquato (PHerc 1475), Ennius Annales (PHerc 21), Caecilius Statius Obolostates sive Faenerator (PHerc 78), and Lucretius De Rerum Natura (PHerc 395, 1829, 1830, 1831)."
So PHerc 1067 was the first work definitely identifiable with the senior Seneca.

Boy I need more coffee! :goodmorning:

Ahhh! Another cup and this is what I missed!

A Precious Papyrus Of Seneca The Elder Found
News Network Archaeology 5/29/2018 09:00:00 PM
https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot ... 51bIRQy.97
'The text belongs to "Historiae ab initio bellorum civilium" by Lucio Anneo Seneca, a work also known as "Oratio in Senatu habita ante principem".'

'The papyrus is made up of 16 fragments from the same 13-metre-long scroll, which deals with the historical and political subjects of the early years of the principates of Augustus and Tiberius (27 B.C. - 37 A.D.). It was to contain a political speech composed of Lucius Manlius Torquato and delivered in the Senate before the emperor.'
Source: ViviCentro

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Re: SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Jun 09, 2019 8:44 am

Peter Kirby wrote:
Sat Jun 08, 2019 12:47 pm
Great news. This reference to the history from Seneca the Younger was, up until now, what we knew about the text.

https://latin.packhum.org/loc/1017/18/0#0
I guess the name of the codex is Vaticanus Niebuhr? At any rate, here is the Latin text (punctuated differently) and my own translation:

Si quaecumque composuit pater meus et edi voluit iam in manus
populi emisissem, ad claritatem nominis sui satis sibi ipse pro-
spexerat. nam nisi me decipit pietas, cuius honestus etiam error
est, inter eos haberetur qui ingenio meruerunt ut puris et inlu-
stribus titulis nobiles essent. quisquis legisset eius historias ab
initio bellorum civilium, unde primum veritas retro abiit, paene
usque ad mortis suae diem, magno aestimasset scire quibus natus
esset parentibus ille qui res Roma<nas>....


If whatever things my father composed and wished to have published I had already committed to the hands of the people, he himself would have seen well enough to the fame of his own name. For, unless my piety deceives me, the error of which is still honorable, he would be held among those who have merited by nature to be deemed noble merely by the pure and illustrious titles [of their compositions?]. Had anyone read his histories from the beginning of the civil war, whence truth first made a retreat, almost until the day of his death, he would have valued it greatly to know to what parents this man had been born who [wrote about?] Roman matters....

Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

Post by DCHindley » Sun Jun 09, 2019 1:06 pm

Thanks ben.

However, I can see why no one ever seems to respond to these links without comments.

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Re: SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

Post by Ben C. Smith » Sun Jun 09, 2019 7:44 pm

I had never even heard (A) of the younger Seneca's De Vita Patris, (B) of the codex Vaticanus Niebuhr (if that is its name) containing the fragment of it, or (C) of the elder Seneca's history.
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Re: SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Jun 10, 2019 10:13 am

And part of the reason I start these threads is the story transcends the individual text. They can obviously read the scrolls now so this should be the start of many such 'discoveries' at which point the narrative of who, what, where, why takes over. Right now I am still in the 'holy shit they can do this!' stage of excitement.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

Post by perseusomega9 » Sat Jun 15, 2019 11:07 am

I wonder just how much is out there waiting to be discovered from that which has already been discovered?

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Re: SENECA THE ELDER'S HISTORIES FOUND AT HERCULANEUM

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Jun 17, 2019 1:35 pm

The honest answer when you think about the question 'I wonder how much is out there waiting to be discovered' is - exactly what we uncover at any given moment.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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