Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

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Jax
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Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:14 pm

On the thread viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3459&start=170 I responded to the poster Kapyong with this quote.

"In my opinion Paul really is the key. But who is Paul in the letters as opposed to others inserting themselves into his texts?

First we need to distill the letters down to those authentic to Paul, then we need to dissect those letters into their component parts, and finally we need to weed out the later interpolations.

Only then can we have a worthwhile conversation about the man himself."

So far I have compiled a list of the letters of Paul that most scholars agree came from the same person with the omission of Philemon, as I consider this letter to be a later creation as part of the letters of Colossians and Ephesians. Also it is small enough to make it unlikely that it is a compilation.

I have further relied on modern scholarship to dissect some of these letters into what some consider to be smaller letters that were later combined to make the longer letters that are in the NT today.

My dissection list is currently as follows...

1: 1 Corinthians.

2: 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:13 and 7:5-16.
3: 2 Corinthians 2:14-6:13 and 7:2-4. With 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 as a possible later interpolation.
4: 2 Corinthians 8:1-24.
5: 2 Corinthians 9:1-15.
6: 2 Corinthians 10-13.

7: Galatians.

8: Philippians 1:1-3:1.
9: Philippians 3:2-4:9
10: Philippians 4:10-20 and also 4:21-23

11: Romans 1 and 2:6-16 and 3:21-26 and 5:1-11 and 8 and 12 and 13 and 15:14-33
12: Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-29 and 3:1-20 and 3:27-31 and 4 and 5:12-20 and 6 and 7 and 9 and 10 and 11 and 14 and 15:1-13
13: Romans 16

14: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-4:2.
15: 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2:12 and 4:3-5:28.

I am now looking into the possibility that 1 Corinthians and Galatians might also be composed of smaller letters. Does anyone here have any links to arguments on these two letters being compilations?

Of course none of my list is set in stone and I welcome all comments. :thumbup:

Thank you all in advance.

Jax

Bernard Muller
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Bernard Muller » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:48 pm

Does anyone here have any links to arguments on these two letters being compilations?
Well, I do. That's in http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html

Cordially, Bernard
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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Tue Oct 03, 2017 5:49 am

Bernard Muller wrote:
Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:48 pm
Does anyone here have any links to arguments on these two letters being compilations?
Well, I do. That's in http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html

Cordially, Bernard
Thank you Bernard, I am reading it now.

Jax

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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by perseusomega9 » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:26 am

While not quite a discussion of smaller letter fragments within the larger books, Neil Godfrey has compiled a nice list of suspected interpolations in the Epistles here http://vridar.org/2014/09/08/list-of-sc ... more-53302

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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:06 am

perseusomega9 wrote:
Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:26 am
While not quite a discussion of smaller letter fragments within the larger books, Neil Godfrey has compiled a nice list of suspected interpolations in the Epistles here http://vridar.org/2014/09/08/list-of-sc ... more-53302
Thank you very much for this perseusomega9!

I really look forward to researching this information. :thumbup:

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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:01 am

Update:

David Trobish argues for 1 Corinthians to be three smaller letters*

Therefore my list now reads:

1: 1 Corinthians 1:1-4:21
2: 1 Corinthians 5:1-6:11
3: 1 Corinthians 6:12-16:24

4: 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:13 and 7:5-16.
5: 2 Corinthians 2:14-6:13 and 7:2-4. With 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 as a possible later interpolation.
6: 2 Corinthians 8:1-24.
7: 2 Corinthians 9:1-15.
8: 2 Corinthians 10-13.

9: Galatians.

10: Philippians 1:1-3:1.
11: Philippians 3:2-4:9
12: Philippians 4:10-20 and also 4:21-23

13: Romans 1 and 2:6-16 and 3:21-26 and 5:1-11 and 8 and 12 and 13 and 15:14-33
14: Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-29 and 3:1-20 and 3:27-31 and 4 and 5:12-20 and 6 and 7 and 9 and 10 and 11 and 14 and 15:1-13
15: Romans 16

16: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-4:2.
17: 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2:12 and 4:3-5:28.

This now leaves Galatians as the only non-composite letter so far. Does anyone know of any arguments that Galatians might also be a composite?

* Paul's Letter Collection by David Trobish pages 76-80.

Stuart
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Stuart » Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:24 pm

The two stories about Jerusalem are from different sources in Galatians. verses 1:18-24 are at odds with 1:15-17, and 2:1 onward

The secondary nature of 1:4-5 and of 2:7b-8 is well established. Verses 3:6-9, 11-12, 14-25 concern the "promise" replacement theology, fundamentally opposed to the theology of the rest of the letter (e.g., 5:3). Verses 1:13-14 can be seen as part of the effort to link Paul's "grace" theology with the OT "promise" theology. There are many other seams and they have been written about by critics for almost three centuries. The letter is hardly a "unity."

My general comment is, this looks like a students first crack at it without disciplined systemic methodology, and without enough foundation to recognize all the conflicting themes. You are about where I was in the mid-1990s.
“’That was excellently observed’, say I, when I read a passage in an author, where his opinion agrees with mine. When we differ, there I pronounce him to be mistaken.” - Jonathan Swift

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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Thu Jan 25, 2018 2:28 pm

Stuart wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 1:24 pm
The two stories about Jerusalem are from different sources in Galatians. verses 1:18-24 are at odds with 1:15-17, and 2:1 onward

The secondary nature of 1:4-5 and of 2:7b-8 is well established. Verses 3:6-9, 11-12, 14-25 concern the "promise" replacement theology, fundamentally opposed to the theology of the rest of the letter (e.g., 5:3). Verses 1:13-14 can be seen as part of the effort to link Paul's "grace" theology with the OT "promise" theology. There are many other seams and they have been written about by critics for almost three centuries. The letter is hardly a "unity."

My general comment is, this looks like a students first crack at it without disciplined systemic methodology, and without enough foundation to recognize all the conflicting themes. You are about where I was in the mid-1990s.
With your more advanced state of knowledge and education in this area, how would you present this material? Do you have any blogs or other that address this issue? If so, I would love to access them. Arguments concerning these seams written about by the critics that you mention would be very helpful to my understanding of these letters as well.

Lane

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Jax
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Jax » Thu Jun 13, 2019 2:03 pm

Jax wrote:
Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:01 am
Update:

David Trobish argues for 1 Corinthians to be three smaller letters*

Therefore my list now reads:

1: 1 Corinthians 1:1-4:21
2: 1 Corinthians 5:1-6:11
3: 1 Corinthians 6:12-16:24

4: 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:13 and 7:5-16.
5: 2 Corinthians 2:14-6:13 and 7:2-4. With 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 as a possible later interpolation.
6: 2 Corinthians 8:1-24.
7: 2 Corinthians 9:1-15.
8: 2 Corinthians 10-13.

9: Galatians.

10: Philippians 1:1-3:1.
11: Philippians 3:2-4:9
12: Philippians 4:10-20 and also 4:21-23

13: Romans 1 and 2:6-16 and 3:21-26 and 5:1-11 and 8 and 12 and 13 and 15:14-33
14: Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-29 and 3:1-20 and 3:27-31 and 4 and 5:12-20 and 6 and 7 and 9 and 10 and 11 and 14 and 15:1-13
15: Romans 16

16: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-4:2.
17: 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2:12 and 4:3-5:28.

This now leaves Galatians as the only non-composite letter so far. Does anyone know of any arguments that Galatians might also be a composite?

* Paul's Letter Collection by David Trobish pages 76-80.
A further update a la Jason D. BeDuhn*

1: Galatians.

2: 1 Corinthians 1:1-4:21
3: 1 Corinthians 5:1-6:11
4: 1 Corinthians 6:12-16:24

5: 2 Corinthians 1:1-2:13 and 7:5-16.
6: 2 Corinthians 2:14-6:13 and 7:2-4. With 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 as a possible later interpolation.
7: 2 Corinthians 8:1-24.
8: 2 Corinthians 9:1-15.
9: 2 Corinthians 10-13.

10: Philippians 1:1-3:1.
11: Philippians 3:2-4:9
12: Philippians 4:10-20 and also 4:21-23

13: Romans 1 and 2:6-16 and 3:21-26 and 5:1-11 and 8 and 12 and 13
14: Romans 2:1-5 and 2:17-29 and 3:1-20 and 3:27-31 and 4 and 5:12-20 and 6, 7, 14

Romans 15?

Romans 16?

Romans 9-11?


16: 1 Thessalonians 2:13-4:2.
17: 1 Thessalonians 1:1-2:12 and 4:3-5:28.

Would really like some feedback on Romans.

And really, any of this.

Lane

*The First New Testament by Jason D. BeDuhn page 221-223

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Irish1975
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Re: Deconstructed Letters of Paulos

Post by Irish1975 » Mon Jun 17, 2019 8:39 am

We recently had an extended debate about both the integrity and the authenticity of Romans 15 (and to a lesser extent 16).
Sub Tiberio quies.

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