Yahwist’s Parallel Formation Techniques

Discussion about the Hebrew Bible, Septuagint, pseudepigrapha, Philo, Josephus, Talmud, Dead Sea Scrolls, archaeology, etc.
nili
Posts: 110
Joined: Thu May 22, 2014 1:02 pm

Re: Yahwist’s Parallel Formation Techniques

Post by nili » Wed Jun 26, 2019 12:44 pm

semiopen wrote:
Sun Jun 23, 2019 7:40 am
The most striking part of the Joseph story is his femininity, at least through his service to Potiphar.

For example -
Now Israel loved Joseph more than all his children, because he was the son of his old age; and he made him a coat of many colours. (Gen. 37:3 JPS)
כְּתֹ֥נֶת פַּסִּֽים - coat of many colors, ornamented tunic.

Isn't that a little gay? Maybe not, different time and place but -
She was wearing an ornamented tunic, for maiden princesses were customarily dressed in such garments. (2 Sam. 13:18 TNK)

This is the only other time כְּתֹ֥נֶת פַּסִּֽים appears in the Tanakh. So, yeah, it probably is pretty gay.
... or not.

TheTorah.com has an article titled "What Do Tzitzit Represent" which may further inform our understanding of the ornamented tunic.

semiopen
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Yahwist’s Parallel Formation Techniques

Post by semiopen » Wed Jun 26, 2019 3:22 pm

I didn't notice any references to the Hebrew phrase I mentioned.
In his Anchor Bible commentary (ad loc.), Baruch Levine points out the similarity between the Hebrew word tzitzit and the Akkadian word for ornament (ṣiṣṣātu).
Further on it goes into a discussion of women wearing Tzitzit (or not). The more interesting discussion is should women wear Tefillin which I think is quite erotic.

I've mentioned before that I use Bibleworks and the references I gave were just for ‎the exact phrase כְּתֹ֥נֶת פַּסִּֽים .

I did another search on ‎ פַּס 6861 in Strong's.
And it came to pass, when Joseph was come unto his brethren, that they stripped Joseph of his coat, the coat of many colours that was on him; (Gen. 37:23 JPS)
and they sent the coat of many colours, and they brought it to their father; and said: 'This have we found. Know now whether it is thy son's coat or not.'
(Gen. 37:32 JPS)
And Tamar put ashes on her head, and rent her garment of many colours that was on her; and she laid her hand on her head, and went her way, crying aloud as she went. (2 Sam. 13:19 JPS)
Get the joke?

Judah and Tamar and [wiki]Tamar_(daughter_of_David)[/wiki] and Amnon.
In the narrative, Amnon became obsessed with Tamar, and she was said to be beautiful like her brother, Absalom. Amnon's friend and cousin Jonadab advised Amnon to pretend to be sick to ask Tamar to prepare him food. He did so, and while she was there, Amnon asked her to have sex with him. She said no repeatedly, but since he was stronger than her, he raped her. After the rape, Amnon treated her disdainfully and sent her home, hating her more than he had loved her. Tamar expressed her grief by tearing her robe and marking her forehead with ashes.[1] She went to Absalom, who attempted to comfort her and took her into his home where she remained desolate. When David heard of her rape, he was angered but did nothing.[2] Absalom had Amnon murdered two years later[3] and then fled to Geshur.[4]
Nothing to see here.

Joseph gets his coat of many colors stripped from him by his brothers (no way would they have raped him though), while Tamar tears her coat of many colors after being raped by her brothers friend, sort of with his assistance. When Joseph finally gets his chance to score in a male role he refuses for pretty dubious reasons and is sent directly to jail. The moral of that story today seems to be that it is sometimes correct to turn down pussy, maybe that is even true.

Of course, as you so eloquently point out, it is quite doubtful to think Israel and Judah weren't the best buddies (the kingdoms). Quite a coincidence that Israel had golden calf issues, one might think they would have learned from the Pentateuch.

klewis
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Re: Yahwist’s Parallel Formation Techniques

Post by klewis » Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:22 pm

Semiopen, thanks for a lot of the info. I was more interested in the Hebrew poetry in connecting the passages. I also treated Genesis-Exodus the same way I would treat Luke-Acts in that they were written at the same time, or in the case of Genesis-Exodus, they were compiled as a complete story. The parallels formation tactics allows us to go back in time and see what Genesis-Exodus looked like at particular stages of their development. In doing that, I had to omit many word plays, historical references. A 50 page article discussing several different drafts of Genesis-Exodus has to drop something.

Luke-Acts forms a simple parallel and Genesis-Exodus forms an inverted (or chiasmus) parallel.

I use BibleWorks a lot and I was sad when they closed up shop. I do a lot of word searches as you do. Unfortunately, my Hebrew is non-existent unless you count a 1 semester college course 30 years ago as something.

I am glad you pointed the Tamar joke and parallel out. Definitely it is a blend of Joseph's robe stories and Tamar pericope.

semiopen
Posts: 471
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Re: Yahwist’s Parallel Formation Techniques

Post by semiopen » Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:24 am

klewis wrote:
Wed Jun 26, 2019 4:22 pm

I am glad you pointed the Tamar joke and parallel out. Definitely it is a blend of Joseph's robe stories and Tamar pericope.
It is too bad that there has been limited discussion of Aggadah here lately. There always used to be a few believers (whatever that means) around also to keep things amusing.

Bibleworks is/was a superb product. Really no other choice for a Jew. Logos seems to discourage Jews; the freeware around might be OK but probably will cost at least several days of intense aggravation to get it running properly. My Hebrew is not good, probably a little better than average in the population of mildly observant older American Jews.

Have to admit, I didn't originally know that the 2 Samuel references were about Tamar bat David, and it was only this conversation that made me look a little deeper. Also have to admit, I was trying to remember the word "pericope" yesterday, even doing a few half hearted googles to see if it would pop up.

It's hard to look at these without at least thinking that they are first temple because of the political situation then. My layman's opinion (that has held up pretty well for the last decades) is that virtually none of Genesis or the first part of Exodus is first temple. Presumably there was some oral tradition during first temple and a few legitimate parts of the Tanakh were also known then.

I am beginning to think that the passages we are talking about were written by basically the same guy. He modified Joseph to include the coat of many colors, wrote (or edited) the 2 Samuel Tamar story, and placed the Judah Tamar story in the middle of Joseph before Potiphar's wife. Might be an interesting thesis subject, but it doesn't take long for Hebrew linguistic analysis to get incomprehensible to someone who doesn't really know Hebrew.

nili
Posts: 110
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Re: Yahwist’s Parallel Formation Techniques

Post by nili » Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:25 am

semiopen wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:24 am
Bibleworks is/was a superb product. Really no other choice for a Jew. ...
I'm embarrassed to admit that I know nothing of Bibleworks. Was it comparable to Sefaria?

klewis
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: Yahwist’s Parallel Formation Techniques

Post by klewis » Fri Jun 28, 2019 9:06 am

BibleWorks was and is a program that was primarily used for translators and Biblical scholars. It has many translations from many different languages. It contains advance search abilities for the ancient texts and the translated texts. It gives the user the ability to for words in all their variants and much more. You can for example, search for everything related to insects in the Bible and it will show you were the texts containing locusts and scorpions. It also included many lexicons and grammar works.

BibleWorks nearest competition is Accordance. Logos, the most known competitor by marketing power, is considerably more expensive than BibleWorks.

I have used BibleWorks for over a decade and I was in mourning when the end of life notice came out last year.

Here is a review on version 10:
https://biblebuyingguide.com/bibleworks ... ch-window/
nili wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:25 am
semiopen wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:24 am
Bibleworks is/was a superb product. Really no other choice for a Jew. ...
I'm embarrassed to admit that I know nothing of Bibleworks. Was it comparable to Sefaria?
Sefaria is limited to Hebrew texts, BibleWorks contains both the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures and many other texts such as Philo, and Josephus, the Complete Church fathers (in English). BibleWorks contained many other tools that Sefaria does not contain at the cost of an ugly interface.

semiopen
Posts: 471
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2014 6:27 pm

Re: Yahwist’s Parallel Formation Techniques

Post by semiopen » Sat Jun 29, 2019 6:50 am

nili wrote:
Fri Jun 28, 2019 8:25 am
semiopen wrote:
Thu Jun 27, 2019 5:24 am
Bibleworks is/was a superb product. Really no other choice for a Jew. ...
I'm embarrassed to admit that I know nothing of Bibleworks. Was it comparable to Sefaria?
I've had Bibleworks for over 15 years and don't know much about other products other than what I read online.

I first started using Bibleworks when I saw an online Biblical Hebrew teacher using it. Hover the cursor over a Hebrew word and up comes a cool translation window - didn't take much to sell me. It has a ludicrous amount of features, which is perhaps more of a negative than a positive.

I've also been trying to understand the logos product (without buying it) for a similar amount of time. It occurred to me recently that they are anti-semitic, perhaps in a Hobby Lobby “We don’t cater to you people.” type of way. Hobby Lobby may have reformed since that scandal but still probably not the kind of place most Jews find appealing.

The Accordance product that KLewis mentioned looks quite good, but Bibleworks had a lot of time to get their application running well so I'm in no hurry to pay for and learn something else. One advantage of them going out of business is that their executable isn't changed as much so, at least, it doesn't bother you to update. Another few years or so and I might have gotten around to unchecking automatic updates.

FWIW, I'm also a big fan of Trope Trainer. https://www.kinnor.com/product-trope-trainer.html

If Americans actually are questioned about their lives after they die, I'm sure one of the important questions will be what bible software did you use. Probably no wrong choice other than not having any.

klewis
Posts: 90
Joined: Mon Apr 15, 2019 9:39 am

Re: Yahwist’s Parallel Formation Techniques

Post by klewis » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:07 am

BibleWorks may have it origins in conservative Christianity just as Logos. The difference between the two was that BibleWorks separated scholarship from theology and decided early on that the tool was meant for Hebrew and Greek studies. They provided a large set of works as part of the base package to support that mission. Logos, went for the broad appeal to the Evangelical Christians for an easy to use system. Their base package reflects their marketing approach as well as their add on reference works. When I used it the tool was glitzy, slow, and often they wanted to provide the answers to questions you did not want to ask let alone the answer.

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