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A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

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A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Thu Sep 10, 2015 11:44 am

.
πρασιά
Mark 6:40 καὶ ἀνέπεσαν πρασιαὶ πρασιαὶ κατὰ ἑκατὸν καὶ κατὰ πεντήκοντα.
(King James 6:39-40: And he commanded them to make all sit down by companies upon the green grass. And they sat down in ranks, by hundreds, and by fifties.)

LSJ The Online Liddell-Scott-Jones
A.bed in a garden, garden-plot, Od.7.127, 24.247, Thphr.HP4.4.3, Nic.Al.532, LXX Si.24.31, Dsc.4.17, Gal.UP9.6; “ἀνθῶν πρασιαί” Longus 4.2: metaph., πρασιαὶ πρασιαί in companies or groups, Ev.Marc.6.40. (Prob. from πράσον, and so prop. bed of leeks.)
II. a surgical instrument, Hermes 38.283.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
πρασιά πρασιά, πρασιας, ἡ, a plot of ground, a garden-bed, Homer, Odyssey 7, 127; 24, 247; Theophrastus, hist. plant. 4, 4, 3; Nicander, Dioscorides (?), others; Sir. 24:31; ἀνέπεσον πρασιαί πρασιαί (a Hebraism), i. e. they reclined in ranks or divisions, so that the several ranks formed, as it were, separate plots, Mark 6:40

Comments
When Mark is telling of the feeding of the 5,000, he alone tells how they sat down in hundreds and in fifties, looking like vegetable beds in a garden (Mark 6:40); and immediately the whole scene rises before us. (Barclay, The Gospel of Mark, New Daily Study Bible, 8)

Row upon row...prasiai prasiai...[is] literally, “by garden plots” [Walter Bauer [1870-1960], F. Wilbur Gingrich [1901-1993], William F. Arndt [1880-1957] and Frederick W. Danker [1920-2012] 860a] “of hundreds and of fifties. (Black, Mark, Abingdon New Testament Commentaries)

In the primary sense, the word πρασιά means a row of leeks, and more broadly a bed of vegetables or flowers. By extension it designates a group, an ordered section. (Focant, The Gospel according to Mark: A Commentary, 260)

The strange and unusual word “garden-plots” does not seem to make much sense in Greek but arguably would be suggestive in Hebrew of the garden of Genesis [Genesis 2:8-3:24]. The repetitious phrasing here, in which the second verse offers a slight variation on the first (“garden-plots” for “green grass” and “hundreds and fifties” for “meal-eating groups”), is typical of the couplets of Hebrew verse. (Sabin, Reopening the Word : Reading Mark as Theology in the Context of Early Judaism, 8)

This descriptive word πρασιαί, garden beds, gives an admirable picturesque touch. The disposition of the people in orderly groups was for the more convenient distribution of food. (Gould, St. Mark (International Critical Commentary), 119)

The word πρασιά means ‘garden-bed’. Hermann Leberecht Strack [1848-1922] and Paul Billerbeck [1853-1932], II, p. 13, quote interesting examples from Rabbinic literature of the arrangement of students sitting in rows before their Rabbis being likened to the rows of vines in a vineyard and to beds in a garden. Specially interesting is the interpretation of Song of Solomon 8:13 (‘Thou that dwellest in the gardens’: ‘When students sit arranged like garden-beds [Hebrew ginnóniyyôt ginnóniyyôt = πρασιά πρασιά] and are engaged in studying the Torah, then I come down to them and hearken to their voice and hear them—Song of Solomon 8:13: “Cause me to hear thy voice.”’ So doubtless here in Mark it is the regular arrangement in companies to which this expression refers, not (as has been suggested) the colours of the clothes of the crowd. (Cranfield, The Gospel according to St Mark: An Introduction and Commentary, 218)


= it means simply an agricultural "bed" (Stop searching for another meaning)
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Re: A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby Bernard Muller » Thu Sep 10, 2015 1:40 pm

Maybe "Mark" used a wrong word, which the other synoptic authors avoided. That goes with the generally accepted notion that "Mark" was not fluent in Greek.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Sep 11, 2015 12:21 am

Bernard Muller wrote:Maybe "Mark" used a wrong word, which the other synoptic authors avoided. That goes with the generally accepted notion that "Mark" was not fluent in Greek.

Cordially, Bernard

In this thread I try to collect such "wrong" words.

I suppose our members will have different opinions about these words. One may think that I'm wrong and that the words „must“ be translated in another way. Others will accept the meaning, but think that Mark's Greek was so poorly. Others – I too - will have faith in Mark and try to find an explanation for his strange word choice.

Regardless of what opinion one may be of, I think these words are interesting.
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Re: A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby robert j » Fri Sep 11, 2015 7:32 am

Bernard Muller wrote:... That goes with the generally accepted notion that "Mark" was not fluent in Greek.

Mark’s use of “street Greek” may have been an affectation --- a deliberate choice.

For many, Mark’s narrative cleverness never ceases to amaze --- his wheels within wheels within wheels many of which I suspect are yet to be illuminated.

Perhaps Mark did not want to sound “elite” and his choice of language tells more about his intended audience than it does about his own language skills.

A story aimed at the many, yet with multiple layers for higher initiates.
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Re: A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby JoeWallack » Sat Sep 12, 2015 9:11 am

JW:
A fascinating pericope. I have faith that the inside of the Markan sandwich here is:

Mark 6

    39 And he commanded them that all should sit down by companies upon the green grass.
      40 And they sat down in ranks, by hundreds, and by fifties.

        41 And he took the five loaves and the two fishes, and looking up to heaven, he blessed, and brake the loaves; and he gave to the disciples to set before them; and the two fishes divided he among them all.

          42 And they all ate, and were filled.

        43 And they took up broken pieces, twelve basketfuls, and also of the fishes.

      44 And they that ate the loaves were five thousand men.

    45 And straightway he constrained his disciples to enter into the boat, and to go before [him] unto the other side to Bethsaida, while he himself sendeth the multitude away.


The key to the Markan sandwiches is that the Inside explains a general principle. This general principle is than used to explain the specifics of the connected outside stories. Here I believe the general principle of the inside story is that = Jesus is the solution (to the problem).

Bonus material for KK = as you said, no need here to deny the meaning of the offending word (used twice for emphasis), rows in a garden. The Markan reference of course is to The Parable of The Sower. Here Jesus is the good sower, throwing out seed (teaching) to good soil (soilent green is people!) and having the word multiply.

Contrast to the disciples. "The Twelve sent out two by two." The Word is multiplying but the Disciples are diminishing until they wither and die. The disciples save their physical lives but their spiritual lives die. Now where did I hear that prediction?

I've given you the keys to the Kingdom here. Time to unlock the bread (so to speak) on the outside. Now go to work Pa(u)l.


Joseph

"Cast your bread upon the water and it shall come back to you one thousand fold." "Yea, but who the hell wants a thousand loaves of soggy bread." - Monster

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Re: A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Sun Sep 13, 2015 11:13 am

JoeWallack wrote:Contrast to the disciples. "The Twelve sent out two by two." The Word is multiplying but the Disciples are diminishing until they wither and die. The disciples save their physical lives but their spiritual lives die. Now where did I hear that prediction?

I've given you the keys to the Kingdom here. Time to unlock the bread (so to speak) on the outside. Now go to work Pa(u)l.


You know, my knowledge of Paul is very limited and a cross-reading of Paul and Mark is harder for me than for Solo or for you. Do you mean 1 Corinthians 11:17.27-30 :confusedsmiley:
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Re: A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Mon Sep 14, 2015 3:06 am

.
στιβάς

Mark 11:8
καὶ πολλοὶ τὰ ἱμάτια αὐτῶν ἔστρωσαν εἰς τὴν ὁδόν, ἄλλοι δὲ στιβάδας κόψαντες ἐκ τῶν ἀγρῶν
and many the cloaks of them spread on the road, others moreover „stibadas“ having been cut down from the fields.

Matthew 21:8 others cut down branches (κλάδους - kladous) from the trees, and strawed them in the way.
Luke 19:36 (omitted) And as he went, they spread their clothes in the way.
John 12:13: took branches of palm trees (βαΐα τῶν φοινίκων - baia tōn phoinikōn), and went forth to meet him, and cried, Hosanna

LSJ The Online Liddell-Scott-Jones
στι^βάς , άδος, ἡ, (στείβω)
*A. bed of straw, rushes, or leaves, whether strewn loose (cf. Ev.Marc.11.8), or stuffed into a mattress, E.Hel. 798; “χαμαιπετής” Id.Tr.507; “σχοίνων” Ar.Pl.541; “ἐπὶ στιβάδων ἐστρωμένων μίλακι καὶ μυρρίναις” Pl.R.372b; “χἁ ς. ἐσσεῖται πεπυκασμένα . . κνύζᾳ τ᾽ ἀσφοδέλῳ τε” Theoc.7.67, cf. 13.34.
b. straw strewn at a sacrifice, hence as name of the ceremony, IG22.1368.48, al. (ii A.D.).
2. mattress, Hdt.4.71, Ar.Pl.663; “ἐπὶ στιβάδος κατακείμενος” Epicur.Fr.207; esp. one used by soldiers, Eup.254, Ar. Pax348, X.HG7.1.16, Plb.5.48.4.
3. generally, bed, Theopomp. Hist.166.
4. nest or lair of mice, Arat.1140; of the fish φυκίς, Arist.HA607b21.
5. grave, BCH13.37 (Iasus), 22.373 (Caria), Ath.Mitt.15.277 (ibid.).

A few examples from the ancient literature with translations found in the Perseus Digital Library
Euripides, Helen, 798
Μενελέως: ὁρῶ ταλαίνας στιβάδας, ὧν τί σοὶ μέτα;
Menelaos: I see a miserable bed of straw, but what do you have to do with it?

Euripides, The Trojan Women, 507
Ἑκάβη: … νῦν δ᾽ ὄντα δοῦλον, στιβάδα πρὸς χαμαιπετῆ πέτρινά τε κρήδεμν᾽,
Hecuba: … but now am a slave, to a bed upon the ground, near some rocky ridge,

Aristophanes, Plutus, 541
πρὸς δέ γε τούτοις ἀνθ᾽ ἱματίου μὲν ἔχειν ῥάκος: ἀντὶ δὲ κλίνης στιβάδα σχοίνων κόρεων μεστήν, ἣ τοὺς εὕδοντας ἐγείρει:
Besides, to possess a rag in place of a mantle, a pallet of rushes swarming with bugs, that do not let you close your eyes, for a bed

Plato, Republic, 372b
κατακλινέντες ἐπὶ στιβάδων ἐστρωμένων μίλακί τε καὶ μυρρίναις
reclined on rustic beds strewn with bryony and myrtle

Herodotus, The Histories, 4.71
καὶ ἔπειτα, ἐπεὰν θέωσι τὸν νέκυν ἐν τῇσι θήκῃσι ἐπὶ στιβάδος
Then, having laid the body on a couch in the tomb

Aristophanes, Peace, 348
πολλὰ γὰρ ἀνεσχόμην πράγματά τε καὶ στιβάδας, ἃς ἔλαχε Φορμίων:
I have suffered so much; have so oft slept with Phormio on hard beds.

Xenophon, Hellenica, 7.1.16
and the men were rising from their camp-beds and going wherever each one had to go.
ἐκ δὲ τῶν στιβάδων ἀνίσταντο ὅποι ἐδεῖτο ἕκαστος

Polybius, Histories, 5.48.4
τῶν δὲ κοιμωμένων οἱ μὲν πλείους ἐν αὐταῖς ταῖς στιβάσι κατεκόπησαν
Of the sleeping soldiers most were killed in their beds

The following is a google-translated post of a Greek forum. The author "nickel" was not interested in the gospel of Mark or specifically in the word „στιβάς“. His goal was to show how words with a very different meaning all etymologically rooted in the verb στείβω (steíbō - tread on, stamp on).
What mess and this! From a steivo all started and failed miserable to stay in language so far - even if trying the Bambiniotis.

The ancient steivo meant trample. The "steivomenai pathways" of Xenophon was pathways (beaten paths / tracks). From reset to zero stiv- step came athletics, ie. The beaten track in the original meaning and, in recent years, it pressed, the flattened piece of the stadium for matches (track). From the same stiv- and rugged (robust), which has not changed meaning from the time of Homer, and the horde: dense array (close array) in ancient, barbarian hordes (swarms, hordes) today.

But from there (from meaning "compress") is the layer. The ancient layer described materials such as straw or leaves compressed into a layer (LSJ: bed of straw, rushes, or leaves, whether strewn loose or stuffed into a mattress; mattress), while today layer describes a dense layer (layer). It is often used in medical terminology, so I give some parallels:
cell layer = cell layer
transparent layer of skin = stratum lucidum, clear layer
= horny layer (stratum) corneum
granular layer of the cerebellum = granular layer
pigment layer of the retina = pigmented layer of retina
monolayer = monolayer
= stratified multilayer
Also:
the ozone layer, the ozone layer
the electrons of the outer layer = the electrons of the outer layer (of an atom)

The avalanche (avalanche) has a history of 150 years. Copy the entry from the snowdrift MGA 1930 (approx): Layer of snow. By the term are erminefousi Tine the English «snow-rollers», being other hand apodidousi by the term chionokylindros, others not by refusing entirely provided snowdrift, antikathistosi evasion through the drifting snow conditions and snow accumulated.

Confused? And I. In OED, snow roller = a cylinder of snow formed by the action of the wind rolling it along. they might still want to describe the snowdrift.

There I looked from when, surely, however, the postwar years, avalanche is the landslide of snow. But it is not only avalanche (together with the transport meanings). There are snowballs of mikimaous (mythical, because there are as natural phenomenon), rolling on the slope and all grow. The verb snowball = I dimensions snowball. The snowball effect translates snowball. And vice versa. The avalanche effect is related to electrical engineering and cryptography. There is the "snowball effect" in Greek-English dictionary, but good Greek-I see translation as the phénomène de l'avalanche, to point out that the right is effet boule de neige.

With transition, as recompense gave pay, the steivo gave ancient padding, the padding the cram (stack, pile (up) | cram, squeeze | stow) and cram the newer stack (stack, pile, heap) and derivatives as stacking (stacking and cramming, crowding), stoivadoros (stacker) and the famous stacking (stowage) ships, which though they ignore known Greek dictionaries.

As we said at the beginning, he gave us all this verb steivo and lost itself in the path (to the point that my debugger, I write every steivo corrects automatically twist!). Affected, say the etymology, another verb, the astringent (in the company of the acrid, astringent, alum, alum) and now writing squeeze (squeeze a lemon | wring the clothes | squeeze my mind, rack my brains). Few of the above I said earlier in wrung lemonokoupa.

In the same company and the spin cycle. The LNEG writes steivo, esteipsa, steimmenos, pressing of citrus, but hardly seems will resurrect the old spelling. Maybe you do not need. Changed also the importance of the word of "trample" and hardly see the relationship with the arena, the layer or stack.

But see another mess. Read Major in layer: a set of similar things that form a dense layer: layer of snow. Similar to LKN: dense and thick material layer: Layers of snow. And I suspect they mean stowed snow. Be same confusion that I find in many Greek-English dictionary? So the books Stavropoulos see layers and layers wastepaper. Elsewhere, snow layers or layers books. Such uses (except the one with the snow) I see a Greek dictionaries or online. They messed with the stack or once called it? There should be written layer that limmatografei the LNEG (1 stack. 2. (esfalm.) Layer) and use the Internet?

If a stranger read the following comment to Spelling, will have right to say "It's crazy these Greeks'

To put it together. The meaning of the word „στιβάς“ is defined by

1) function: It is something on which one can lay to sleep or to rest or ...
2) material: It is something that is made out of vegetable matter, pressed or layered, such as straw, leaves ...

= it means simply „strawmat“ or „bed of straw and leaves“

Getting ready for Jesus' royal welcome!
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Re: A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby DCHindley » Mon Sep 14, 2015 6:13 pm

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
πρασιά
Mark 6:40 καὶ ἀνέπεσαν πρασιαὶ πρασιαὶ κατὰ ἑκατὸν καὶ κατὰ πεντήκοντα.
(King James 6:39-40: And he commanded them to make all sit down by companies upon the green grass. And they sat down in ranks, by hundreds, and by fifties.)

LSJ The Online Liddell-Scott-Jones
A.bed in a garden, garden-plot, Od.7.127, 24.247, Thphr.HP4.4.3, Nic.Al.532, LXX Si.24.31, Dsc.4.17, Gal.UP9.6; “ἀνθῶν πρασιαί” Longus 4.2: metaph., πρασιαὶ πρασιαί in companies or groups, Ev.Marc.6.40. (Prob. from πράσον, and so prop. bed of leeks.)
II. a surgical instrument, Hermes 38.283.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
πρασιά πρασιά, πρασιας, ἡ, a plot of ground, a garden-bed, Homer, Odyssey 7, 127; 24, 247; Theophrastus, hist. plant. 4, 4, 3; Nicander, Dioscorides (?), others; Sir. 24:31; ἀνέπεσον πρασιαί πρασιαί (a Hebraism), i. e. they reclined in ranks or divisions, so that the several ranks formed, as it were, separate plots, Mark 6:40

Comments
When Mark is telling of the feeding of the 5,000, he alone tells how they sat down in hundreds and in fifties, looking like vegetable beds in a garden (Mark 6:40); and immediately the whole scene rises before us. (Barclay, The Gospel of Mark, New Daily Study Bible, 8)

Row upon row...prasiai prasiai...[is] literally, “by garden plots” [Walter Bauer [1870-1960], F. Wilbur Gingrich [1901-1993], William F. Arndt [1880-1957] and Frederick W. Danker [1920-2012] 860a] “of hundreds and of fifties. (Black, Mark, Abingdon New Testament Commentaries)

In the primary sense, the word πρασιά means a row of leeks, and more broadly a bed of vegetables or flowers. By extension it designates a group, an ordered section. (Focant, The Gospel according to Mark: A Commentary, 260)

The strange and unusual word “garden-plots” does not seem to make much sense in Greek but arguably would be suggestive in Hebrew of the garden of Genesis [Genesis 2:8-3:24]. The repetitious phrasing here, in which the second verse offers a slight variation on the first (“garden-plots” for “green grass” and “hundreds and fifties” for “meal-eating groups”), is typical of the couplets of Hebrew verse. (Sabin, Reopening the Word : Reading Mark as Theology in the Context of Early Judaism, 8)

This descriptive word πρασιαί, garden beds, gives an admirable picturesque touch. The disposition of the people in orderly groups was for the more convenient distribution of food. (Gould, St. Mark (International Critical Commentary), 119)

The word πρασιά means ‘garden-bed’. Hermann Leberecht Strack [1848-1922] and Paul Billerbeck [1853-1932], II, p. 13, quote interesting examples from Rabbinic literature of the arrangement of students sitting in rows before their Rabbis being likened to the rows of vines in a vineyard and to beds in a garden. Specially interesting is the interpretation of Song of Solomon 8:13 (‘Thou that dwellest in the gardens’: ‘When students sit arranged like garden-beds [Hebrew ginnóniyyôt ginnóniyyôt = πρασιά πρασιά] and are engaged in studying the Torah, then I come down to them and hearken to their voice and hear them—Song of Solomon 8:13: “Cause me to hear thy voice.”’ So doubtless here in Mark it is the regular arrangement in companies to which this expression refers, not (as has been suggested) the colours of the clothes of the crowd. (Cranfield, The Gospel according to St Mark: An Introduction and Commentary, 218)


= it means simply an agricultural "bed" (Stop searching for another meaning)


I think this is meant to work off the parable of the sower in Mark 4. The 50s and 100s sit in garden rows, fertile soil. Only that parable speaks of 30, 60 & 100 fold (as does gMatthew, gLuke speaks of 100 fold). Alternatively, 50s & 100s sounds military like, and Roman military-ish to boot.
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Re: A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Tue Sep 29, 2015 11:07 am

JoeWallack wrote:The Markan reference of course is to The Parable of The Sower. Here Jesus is the good sower, throwing out seed (teaching) to good soil (soilent green is people!) and having the word multiply.
DCHindley wrote:I think this is meant to work off the parable of the sower in Mark 4. The 50s and 100s sit in garden rows, fertile soil. Only that parable speaks of 30, 60 & 100 fold (as does gMatthew, gLuke speaks of 100 fold). Alternatively, 50s & 100s sounds military like, and Roman military-ish to boot.

Agreed :)

Ἰουδαῖος
(Ioudaios)

Mark 7:3
Οἱ γὰρ Φαρισαῖοι καὶ πάντες οἱ Ἰουδαῖοι, ἐὰν μὴ πυγμῇ νίψωνται τὰς χεῖρας, οὐκ ἐσθίουσιν, κρατοῦντες τὴν παράδοσιν τῶν πρεσβυτέρων·
For the Pharisees, and all the Jews, except they wash their hands oft, eat not, holding the tradition of the elders.

Inside the Gospel of Mark
Mark 1:5
And there went out unto him all the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem (Ἱεροσολυμῖται - Hierosolymitai), and were all baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.
Ἱεροσολυμῖται (Hierosolymitai) = Jerusalemites (the population of Jerusalem)

Mark 14:70
And he denied it again. And a little after, they that stood by said again to Peter, Surely thou art one of them: for thou art a Galilaean (Γαλιλαῖος - Galilaios), and thy speech agreeth thereto.

Mark 3:7-8
But Jesus withdrew himself with his disciples to the sea: and a great multitude from Galilee followed him, and from Judaea, and from Jerusalem, and from Idumaea, and from beyond Jordan; and they about Tyre and Sidon, a great multitude, when they had heard what great things he did, came unto him.

Daniel Boyarin, The Jewish Gospels, Notes, 3. Jesus Kept Kosher, 10:
These words usually translated 'and all the Jews' make no sense according to that usual translation, as they almost directly contradict the point of the whole pericope. Why attack the Pharisees alone if their practice is simply the practice of all the Jews? For 'Judeans' is one legitimate translation of Ioudaioi, if not the only one always and everywhere … It should be noted also that the translation 'Judaeans' rather than 'Jews' obviates comments that suggest that Mark by writing this is indicating a position outside of Jewry.

GMark is a story taking place (among others) in Galilee, Judaea and Jerusalem. Therefore the inhabitants of this areas are Galilaeans, Jerusalemites and - it`s simple or not? -

Judaeans
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Re: A MAR(i)Kan cyclopedia

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Tue Sep 20, 2016 10:56 am

.
πάλαι

The normal sense of the adverb “πάλαι“ is “of old, long ago, in times past, former”. But it can refer also to a near past, in the sense of ”It's long past your bedtime, children!”

Whatever the case may be, Mark’s use of “πάλαι“ in Mark 15:44 may be interesting.
15:42 And already (ἤδη) evening having arrived ...
15:44 But Pilate wondered if already (ἤδη) he were dead. And having called the Centurion, he questioned him if he were long (πάλαι) dead.

The word “already” (ἤδη) is already used in Mark 15:42 and 15:44. Therefore “πάλαι“ must have a different sense. But why does Pilate ask, whether Jesus were long dead?

Mark L. Strauss wrote
Mark's use of the term “already” (πάλαι) is unusual. It carries the sense of “long before” or “in times past” and so emphasizes that Jesus had expired at some time previous. Mark may use this term for stylistic variation, since he has just used the more common “already” (ἤδη) in the previous sentence.

I surmise that this may be not the last answer.

In some mss (P45, Bezae) “πάλαι“ occurs also in Mark 6:47
And evening having come, the boat was long (πάλαι) in the midst of the sea, and he alone upon the land
(Note the same phrase “And evening having come” in Mark 6:47 and Mark 15:42)
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