[Forgery] 2 Corinthians 11:32-33 [/Forgery]

[Chris Weimer]

To actually dip my toes into this conversation...

Well I thought ancient Greek went right to left like Hebrew.

Joe, you've been arguing on these [types of] boards since, what, 2004? 2003? Anyway, nit-picking and all, the last letter visible is clearly a sigma, and you wouldn't expect "cus" at the end there, but rather a simple kappa and omega. There's no real way of telling what the next letters actually are, but why would you think it read "Damascenes" (Δαμασκηνοῖς)?

[JoeWallack]

To actually dip my toes into this conversation...

Well I thought ancient Greek went right to left like Hebrew.

Joe, you've been arguing on these [types of] boards since, what, 2004? 2003? Anyway, nit-picking and all, the last letter visible is clearly a sigma, and you wouldn't expect "cus" at the end there, but rather a simple kappa and omega. There's no real way of telling what the next letters actually are, but why would you think it read "Damascenes" (Δαμασκηνοῖς)?

JW:
Wow!, Chris Weimer. Great to see you back in men's avatars (by the way, what have you done with Ben Smith?). Talk about friend or foe. Anyway, this excursion had a Happy Ending:

Μ = μ

Α = a

= δaμa (dama)

I'll go beyond that and even say that what is showing of the last visible letter is consistent with this Scribe's Sigma (Damas).

I'm satisfied. PhilJay?

PhilJay: I'm outraged.

Thanks Andrew.

JW:
So I end up agreeing with Andrew's assertion but not before actually looking at the offending Manuscript. That was the point of this exercise. If it's possible to look for yourself, than do it. Don't rely on assertion/assumption.

The last letter is not "clearly" a sigma. Have you been studying with Peter Flint?

Anyway, it would be nice to actually have someone here that knows Biblical Greek considering that Andrew told me that's what the Christian Bible was written in. Plus I already have the new new Adam as a Foe so I need to balance it out. Friend it is. Welcome.

I started arguing religion at the start of the Internet with Al Gore. I went to AOL's Judaism Boards (all there was at the time) to argue and the Moderator there was Sermon3, a Baptist Minister. Anyone remember him? Those Boards were a lot like being in Pensacola or Coeur d'alene except there were more fundamentalist Christians in the Judaism Boards. I graduated to Farrell Till's skepticism Board and got my first taste of Skeptics who were more concerned about their Skeptical image of not appearing to be too enthusiastic about possible errors in the Christian Bible than they were about determining if there are errors in the Christian Bible. You haven't seen any of those types around here, have you?


Joseph

ErrancyWiki

[Chris Weimer]

Well, I disagree about the sigma, but a fine idea it is to make yourself dig through the ancient witnesses yourself! And new new Adam?

As far as skeptics concerned with their image and Baptist ministers moderating a Judaism board, by all means I try to avoid those types!

[spin]

I posted in another thread that P46 has the beginning of 11:32 In Damas[cus] See P46

Further to Andrew's note, there are a few characters on the following line under δαμασ, ie εως. The sigma is incomplete but is consistent with what is there.

This papyrus fragment has 24-27 letters per line and the εως of βασιλεως ("king") would be letters 25-27 of the following line, the last letters of the line. This means that βασιλεως is fairly certain and it follows that everything in between is probable. P46 is evidence in favor of 2 Cor 11:32.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

This papyrus fragment has 24-27 letters per line and the εως of βασιλεως ("king") would be letters 25-27 of the following line, the last letters of the line. This means that βασιλεως is fairly certain and it follows that everything in between is probable. P46 is evidence in favor of 2 Cor 11:32.

fits well

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

The word for basket (σαργάνη – sargané) in 2 Cor 11:33, a hapax legomenon in NT and the Septuagint, should be a little, but fine argument for the authenticity of the verse. There are many baskets in NT and the Septuagint and I assume that a forger would use one of the more common words (as "Luke" does in Acts 9:25 - σπυρίς [spuris]).

It appears that σπυρίς, which also only appears once in Luke-Acts should be translated as basket. However σαργάνη seems to be a more interesting word and could mean “plaited rope”. Is it possible that “εν σαργάνη”, would be better translated as “by plaited rope” rather than “in wicker-basket”? If so then that could be evidence for 1 Cor 11:33 being earlier and historical. Do you have any references for the use of “σαργάνη” anywhere else? For such evidence might help with working out how to translate it.

Our David made the hard work

But you are referring, of course, to 2 Cor 11:33.

NA-27 καὶ διὰ θυρίδος ἐν σαργάνῃ ἐχαλάσθην διὰ τοῦ τείχους καὶ ἐξέφυγον τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ.
RSV but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands.

AFAIK, the Greek word σαργάνη describes the basket itself, not the means by which it was lowered. I'll grant that Strong's Concordance calls it "a plaited rope, hence a hamper, basket" but defines it as "a basket, generally of twisted cords." A review of various lexicons available in Bibleworks tells me that the word primarily refers to a basket of braided or plaited cords. Thayer's Greek lexicon has:

σαργάνῃ ((properly, 'braided-work', from the root, tark; Fick, Part iii., p. 598; Vanicek, p. 297)), σαργανης, ἡ;
1. a braided rope, a band (Aeschylus suppl. 788).
2. a basket, a basket made of ropes, a hamper (cf. B. D., under the word Basket): 2 Cor. 11:33; (Timocles, in Athen. 8, p. 339 e.; 9, p. 407 e.; (others)).

The initial reference is to Aeschylus, Suppliant Women, line 788.

The evil is no longer escapable; [785] my heart is darkened and trembling; the look-out my father held has brought me ruin. I am undone with terror. Rather would I meet my doom in a noose [790] than suffer the embraces of a man I loathe. Death before that, with Hades for my lord and master!

However, when I pull up that Greek text in Perseus, the word used is ἀρτάναις, "A. that by which something is hung up, rope, noose, halter."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... card%3D784

If one thinks about it, the ἐν before the word means "in." Are you suggesting Paul was wound up in a rope, and not in a basket made of rope?

I searched Perseus.org for all forms of the word σαργάνῃ, and I get this:

Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists book 8, chapter 23: ... ἄπληστός ἐστι γάρ. ὅμως δὲ δοῦναί σοι κέλευσον σαργάνας αὐτὴν ταρίχους εὐπόρως γὰρ τυγχάνει ἔχουσα καὶ = Bid her give you a basket of cured fish;

book 9, chapter 73: ... Χαιρεφίλου πόρρωθεν ἀπιδὼν τὸν παχὺν ἐπόππυσ᾽, εἶτ᾽ ἐκέλευσε πέμπειν σαργάνας. ὅτι δὲ καὶ τῶν δήμων Ἀχαρνεὺς ὁ Τηλέμαχος = And then he bade him send some wicker baskets.

Lucian, Lexiphanes (ed. A. M. Harmon) (Greek) section 6: ... καὶ ὅσα ὀστράκινα τὸ δέρμα καὶ τεμάχη Ποντικὰ τῶν ἐκ σαργάνης καὶ κωπαΐδες καὶ ὄρνις σύντροφος καὶ ἀλεκτρυὼν ἤδη ἀπῳδὸς = Of submarine victuals, too, there were many sorts of selacian, all the ostraceans, cuts of Pontic tunny [a species of Tuna] in hanapers. [A hanaper is an old fashioned word for a wicker basket]

Aeneas Tacticus, Poliorcetica (ed. William Abbott Oldfather) (Greek) chapter XXIX: ... ἐν τοῖς ἐρίοις καὶ ἀχύροις κεκρυμμένα, καὶ ἄλλα εὐογκότερα ἐν σαργάναις ἀσταφίδος καὶ σύκων πλήρεσιν, ἐγχειρίδια δὲ ἐν ἀμφορεῦσι πυρῶν ... τὰ ἄγγη τῶν ἀχύρων καὶ ἐρίων ἐξεκένουν, οἱ δὲ τὰς σαργάνας ἀνέτεμνον, ἄλλοι δὲ τὰς κιβωτοὺς ἀνοίγοντες τὰ ὅπλα ἐξῄρουν, = 6 These cases [of smuggled arms] were then stored in a convenient spot near the market-place. In crates also and wicker frames and wrapped up in half-woven sail-cloth, spears and javelins were brought in, and, without arousing suspicion, placed where each would be serviceable. [the author was explaining how to smuggle soldiers and weapons into a city to attack from within, making a siege unnecessary]

DCH

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

There are a few papyri from late antiquity, in which the word appears as a unit of weight or volume for chaff and hay. For example:

Aurelii Ammonios and Petobastios and Ptolemaios, epimeletai of the chaff of Memphis and Babylon. Has brought Panisatis son of Aunes, for Karanis, one basket (sargane), 1, for the 20th year and 12th year. On Phamenoth 9.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

from
The Attic Stelai: Part III. Vases and Other Containers
D. A. Amyx and W. Kendrick Pritchett
Hesperia: The Journal of the American School of Classical Studies at Athens
Vol. 27, No. 4 (Oct. - Dec., 1958), pp. 255-310

5. SARGANE
(II, 135)

This listing of "litrou sargana" (price not stated) places chief emphasis upon the "litron" (= nitron, sodium carbonate, on which see Pritchett, Part II, pp. 311 f.). The "sarganai" are here significant mainly for their contents. On the other hand, the term must refer to a particular kind of container and not simply to a measure. The same passage has references to "hemisakia" and "phormoi" of produce (on the use of these terms for measures, see Pritchett, Part II, pp. 193-195; on "phormoi" see further below, pp. 274-275); but there is no evidence that "sargane" was ever used for a fixed unit of measure.

The word "sargane" is defined as a rope or cord of plaited material, and as a basket. The latter is far more common. The use most often mentioned is to contain salt fish, and that may have been its primary purpose. It also was used for raisins and figs, for beans, and perhaps for chaff. The size could of course have varied widely. In the New Testament account of St. Paul's escape from Damascus by being let down from the wall in a "sargane", there may be some hint as to size. The passage has, in fact, been cited to explain the comic exclamation from Timokles, " Send for sarganai! " on the approach of well-known glutton. Nevertheless, the word is plural in Timokles; and as for St. Paul's descent, a man standing erect and holding the taut rope could have managed with a basket of quite modest size. The shape, too, is elusive.

A comparison with "gyrgathos", another ill-defined type of basket, is suggested by the line in the Edict of Diocletian which sets a maximum price, according to the weight, on "sarkinos etoi gyrgathos", but nothing very concrete can be learned from this passage. From all this material, which offers hardly any clues for archaeological comparisons, not enough information emerges to allow a very close definition or illustration of "sargane" which would set it apart from several other basket-words in our lists.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

.
variant readings 2 Cor 11:32-33 via laparola

2 Cor 11:32
πόλιν Δαμασκηνῶν] WH
Δαμασκηνῶν πόλιν] Byz ς

πιάσαι με] B D* itar itb itd itdem ite itf ito itx itz(vid) vg syrp copsa arm Eusebius Ambrosiaster Ephraem Pelagius Procopius WH NR CEI ND Riv TILC Nv NM
θέλων πιάσαι με] F G (629 1739 με πιάσαι) itg syrh copbo eth
πιάσαι με θέλων] ‭א D2 H K L P Ψ 075 0121 0150 0243 6 33 81 88 104 181 256 263 326 330 365 424 436 451 459 614 630 1175 1241 1319 1573 1852 1877 1881 1912 1962 1984 1985 2127 2200 2464 2492 2495 Byz Lect goth geo slav Chrysostom Euthalius Theodoret John-Damascus ς Dio

Codex Sinaiticus

2 Cor 11:32	Ἐν Δαμασκῷ ὁ ἐθνάρχης Ἀρέτα τοῦ βασιλέως ἐφρούρει τὴν πόλιν Δαμασκηνῶν, πιάσαι με θέλων•	In Damascus the Ethnarch of Aretas the King was guarding the city of the Damascenes to seize me wishing
2 Cor 11:33	καὶ διὰ θυρίδος ἐν σαργάνῃ ἐχαλάσθην διὰ τοῦ τείχους καὶ ἐξέφυγον τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ.	and through a window in a basket I was lowered through the wall and escaped the hands of him.

What Rab Spin has said about P46

I posted in another thread that P46 has the beginning of 11:32 In Damas[cus] See P46

Further to Andrew's note, there are a few characters on the following line under δαμασ, ie εως. The sigma is incomplete but is consistent with what is there.

This papyrus fragment has 24-27 letters per line and the εως of βασιλεως ("king") would be letters 25-27 of the following line, the last letters of the line. This means that βασιλεως is fairly certain and it follows that everything in between is probable. P46 is evidence in favor of 2 Cor 11:32.

P46 – the red text is attested, in black the reading of Sinaiticus

ὁ θεὸς καὶ πατὴρ τοῦ κυρίου
(Ἰησοῦ οἶδε)ν ὁ ὢν εὐλογητὸς εἰς τοὺς
(αἰῶνας, ὅτι οὐ ψ)εύδομαι. Ἐν Δαμασ
(κῷ ὁ ἐθνάρχης Ἀρέτα τοῦ βασιλ)έως
(ἐφρούρει τὴν πόλιν Δαμασκηνῶν, - 26 letters
πιάσαι με θέλων• καὶ διὰ θυρίδος) - 26 letters with "θέλων" (wishing)

ἐν σαργάνῃ ἐχαλάσθην διὰ τοῦ τείχους
καὶ ἐξέφυγον τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ.

I think a little point in favor of Sinaiticus and against Vaticanus

[Michael BG]

I also saw this:

But the actual word is σαργάνῃ (not σπυρίς) defined as 'a plaited rope, hence a hamper, basket'.
Sargane probably comes from Hebrew śârag (שׂרג) meaning 'to be intertwined'. Hardly a bed sheet.

The word for basket (σαργάνη – sargané) in 2 Cor 11:33, a hapax legomenon in NT and the Septuagint, should be a little, but fine argument for the authenticity of the verse. There are many baskets in NT and the Septuagint and I assume that a forger would use one of the more common words (as "Luke" does in Acts 9:25 - σπυρίς [spuris]).

It appears that σπυρίς, which also only appears once in Luke-Acts should be translated as basket. However σαργάνη seems to be a more interesting word and could mean “plaited rope”. Is it possible that “εν σαργάνη”, would be better translated as “by plaited rope” rather than “in wicker-basket”? If so then that could be evidence for 1 Cor 11:33 being earlier and historical. Do you have any references for the use of “σαργάνη” anywhere else? For such evidence might help with working out how to translate it.

Our David made the hard work

But you are referring, of course, to 2 Cor 11:33.

NA-27 καὶ διὰ θυρίδος ἐν σαργάνῃ ἐχαλάσθην διὰ τοῦ τείχους καὶ ἐξέφυγον τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ.
RSV but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands.

AFAIK, the Greek word σαργάνη describes the basket itself, not the means by which it was lowered. I'll grant that Strong's Concordance calls it "a plaited rope, hence a hamper, basket" but defines it as "a basket, generally of twisted cords." A review of various lexicons available in Bibleworks tells me that the word primarily refers to a basket of braided or plaited cords. Thayer's Greek lexicon has:

σαργάνῃ ((properly, 'braided-work', from the root, tark; Fick, Part iii., p. 598; Vanicek, p. 297)), σαργανης, ἡ;
1. a braided rope, a band (Aeschylus suppl. 788).
2. a basket, a basket made of ropes, a hamper (cf. B. D., under the word Basket): 2 Cor. 11:33; (Timocles, in Athen. 8, p. 339 e.; 9, p. 407 e.; (others)).

The initial reference is to Aeschylus, Suppliant Women, line 788.

The evil is no longer escapable; [785] my heart is darkened and trembling; the look-out my father held has brought me ruin. I am undone with terror. Rather would I meet my doom in a noose [790] than suffer the embraces of a man I loathe. Death before that, with Hades for my lord and master!

However, when I pull up that Greek text in Perseus, the word used is ἀρτάναις, "A. that by which something is hung up, rope, noose, halter."
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... card%3D784

If one thinks about it, the ἐν before the word means "in." Are you suggesting Paul was wound up in a rope, and not in a basket made of rope?

I searched Perseus.org for all forms of the word σαργάνῃ, and I get this:

Athenaeus, The Deipnosophists book 8, chapter 23: ... ἄπληστός ἐστι γάρ. ὅμως δὲ δοῦναί σοι κέλευσον σαργάνας αὐτὴν ταρίχους εὐπόρως γὰρ τυγχάνει ἔχουσα καὶ = Bid her give you a basket of cured fish;

book 9, chapter 73: ... Χαιρεφίλου πόρρωθεν ἀπιδὼν τὸν παχὺν ἐπόππυσ᾽, εἶτ᾽ ἐκέλευσε πέμπειν σαργάνας. ὅτι δὲ καὶ τῶν δήμων Ἀχαρνεὺς ὁ Τηλέμαχος = And then he bade him send some wicker baskets.

Lucian, Lexiphanes (ed. A. M. Harmon) (Greek) section 6: ... καὶ ὅσα ὀστράκινα τὸ δέρμα καὶ τεμάχη Ποντικὰ τῶν ἐκ σαργάνης καὶ κωπαΐδες καὶ ὄρνις σύντροφος καὶ ἀλεκτρυὼν ἤδη ἀπῳδὸς = Of submarine victuals, too, there were many sorts of selacian, all the ostraceans, cuts of Pontic tunny [a species of Tuna] in hanapers. [A hanaper is an old fashioned word for a wicker basket]

Aeneas Tacticus, Poliorcetica (ed. William Abbott Oldfather) (Greek) chapter XXIX: ... ἐν τοῖς ἐρίοις καὶ ἀχύροις κεκρυμμένα, καὶ ἄλλα εὐογκότερα ἐν σαργάναις ἀσταφίδος καὶ σύκων πλήρεσιν, ἐγχειρίδια δὲ ἐν ἀμφορεῦσι πυρῶν ... τὰ ἄγγη τῶν ἀχύρων καὶ ἐρίων ἐξεκένουν, οἱ δὲ τὰς σαργάνας ἀνέτεμνον, ἄλλοι δὲ τὰς κιβωτοὺς ἀνοίγοντες τὰ ὅπλα ἐξῄρουν, = 6 These cases [of smuggled arms] were then stored in a convenient spot near the market-place. In crates also and wicker frames and wrapped up in half-woven sail-cloth, spears and javelins were brought in, and, without arousing suspicion, placed where each would be serviceable. [the author was explaining how to smuggle soldiers and weapons into a city to attack from within, making a siege unnecessary]

DCH

David Hindley makes a strong case that σαργάνη (sargané) should be translated as wicker basket. As you have with your subsequent posts. However Strong’s does say that it is “apparently of Hebrew origin” and then links it to śârag (שׂרג) – as in intertwine together.

2 Cor 11
In Damascus the governor under King Aretas had the city of the Damascenes guarded in order to arrest me. 33But I was lowered in a basket from a window in the wall and slipped through his hands.

Those verses have only one precedent in OT:

Joshua 2
2 The king of Jericho was told, “Look, some of the Israelites have come here tonight to spy out the land.” 3 So the king of Jericho sent this message to Rahab: “Bring out the men who came to you and entered your house, because they have come to spy out the whole land.”
15 So she let them down by a rope through the window, for the house she lived in was part of the city wall. 16 She said to them, “Go to the hills so the pursuers will not find you. Hide yourselves there three days until they return, and then go on your way.”

The Greek word for basket σαργάνη in 2 Cor 11:33 has the meaning: a plaited rope. The common elements of 2 Corinthians and Joshua are: lowering by a rope through a window in a city wall to escape from a king of a particular Gentile city: Jericho or Damascus.
The one who had written those passages in 2 Corinthians very probably was doing that having Joshua 2 in mind.

The Hebrew includes an explanation that her house was built into the city wall, but there is nothing of the sort in the Greek translation of this OT book. All it says is that she "let them down by the window."

Joshua 2:15 καὶ κατεχάλασεν αὐτοὺς διὰ τῆς θυρίδος (BibleWorks revision of Rhalf's edition) = And she let them down by the window (Brenton's translation of the Greek OT).

The RSV has "(RSV Jos 2:15) Then she let them down by a rope through the window, for her house was built into the city wall, so that she dwelt in the wall."

It is not clear to me whether the Greek preserves the original wording and the Hebrew includes an explanatory gloss, or the Greek has truncated a longer Hebrew passage.

The "let down" part uses the same word as Joshua:

2Co 11:33 καὶ διὰ θυρίδος ἐν σαργάνῃ ἐχαλάσθην διὰ τοῦ τείχους καὶ ἐξέφυγον τὰς χεῖρας αὐτοῦ = but I was let down in a basket through a window in the wall, and escaped his hands.

DCH

The section in 1 Samuel 19 also has something similar:

11Saul sent men to David’s house to watch it and to kill him in the morning. But Michal, David’s wife, warned him, “If you don’t run for your life tonight, tomorrow you’ll be killed.” 12So Michal let David down through a window, and he fled and escaped.

After that Saul strangely starts to prophesy:

23So Saul went to Naioth at Ramah. But the Spirit of God came even on him, and he walked along prophesying until he came to Naioth. 24He stripped off his garments, and he too prophesied in Samuel’s presence. He lay naked all that day and all that night. This is why people say, “Is Saul also among the prophets?”

According to this, 2 Cor 11:33 goes along the lines in Acts which make the connection Saul=Paul

I think these are interesting. If 2 Cor 11:32-33 is an interpolation was it influenced by Jos 2:15 or 1 Sam 19:12? It does explain the escaping through the window (διὰ τῆς θυρίδος).