Saint or Sinner?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
robert j
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Saint or Sinner?

Post by robert j » Thu Oct 01, 2015 2:54 pm

But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles … (Galatians 1:15-16, NASB)
But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? (Romans 3:7, NASB)

iskander
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Re: Saint or Sinner?

Post by iskander » Thu Oct 01, 2015 3:52 pm

Neither saint, nor sinner

Galatians says that faith cannot be chosen but it is given as a gift.
Romans says that it is not in the power of mankind to be perfect .

Bernard Muller
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Re: Saint or Sinner?

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Oct 01, 2015 6:30 pm

Paul admitted he had been saying "pious" lies:
http://historical-jesus.info/5.html
http://historical-jesus.info/26.html

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

outhouse
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Re: Saint or Sinner?

Post by outhouse » Thu Oct 01, 2015 8:57 pm

Bernard Muller wrote:Paul admitted he had been saying "pious" lies:
http://historical-jesus.info/5.html
http://historical-jesus.info/26.html

Cordially, Bernard
Are you taking paul way our of context to meet your own personal agenda here Bernard?
Last edited by outhouse on Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.

outhouse
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Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 6:48 pm

Re: Saint or Sinner?

Post by outhouse » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:00 pm

robert j wrote:

But if through my lie the truth of God abounded to His glory, why am I also still being judged as a sinner? (Romans 3:7, NASB)
Here is a version a little more clear


Someone might argue, "If my falsehood enhances God's truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"

That is the context.

outhouse
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Re: Saint or Sinner?

Post by outhouse » Thu Oct 01, 2015 9:04 pm

the apostle is not speaking of himself, nor of his lie of unbelief, in his state of unregeneracy; but in the person of a sinful man, "for every man is a liar", Romans 3:4, as he says, "I speak as a man", Romans 3:5; representing a wicked man, who from what was before said, might collect this as the sense of it, that the truth of God is illustrated by the lies of men: and so much may be owned as the apostle's sense, that the truth of God is commended, illustrated, and made to abound, when it is asserted, that he is true and faithful, and every man is a liar, fallacious, and deceitful; "let God be true, and every man a liar",

Bernard Muller
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Re: Saint or Sinner?

Post by Bernard Muller » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:13 pm

to outhouse,
Bernard Muller wrote:
Paul admitted he had been saying "pious" lies:
http://historical-jesus.info/5.html
http://historical-jesus.info/26.html
Are you taking paul way our of context to meet your own personal agenda here Bernard?
Why would you say that? Did you read my blog posts?
I do not care really if Paul admitted or not he had been lying on certain matters, but the evidence indicates he did confess it.

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed

robert j
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Re: Saint or Sinner?

Post by robert j » Fri Oct 02, 2015 6:33 am

But what did Paul lie about?

Paul admits his lie led people to the glory of god. For Paul, It was through faith in his Jesus Christ that led to the glory of god. So Paul’s lie was apparently related to something about his story of his Christ, or about his own biography that gave him his authority, or about his backstory. Paul’s backstory of Judean predecessors provided him with traditions of a wider spiritual movement that gave him credibility with his converts.

Paul’s lie was such that it led people to judge him as a sinner. And it had become an issue significantly troublesome to compel Paul to own-up to his lie in writing.

Despite Paul’s spin and attempts to justify his actions, I’m not inclined to write-off the issue as merely a lesson on the imperfections of man, or as “pious lies”.

IMO, important aspects of the very foundation of the Christian faith are in play.

iskander
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Joined: Thu Aug 13, 2015 12:38 pm

Re: Saint or Sinner?

Post by iskander » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:16 am

Bernard Muller wrote:Paul admitted he had been saying "pious" lies:
http://historical-jesus.info/5.html
http://historical-jesus.info/26.html

Cordially, Bernard
Hi Bernard.
Paul seem to be involved in a discussion.
In verses 1-4 he accepts that " the Jews* were entrusted with the oracles of God.". Next Paul asks, "3What if some were unfaithful? Will their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God?". Paul answer this question like this: "4By no means! Although everyone is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written,
‘So that you may be justified in your words,
and prevail in your judging.’* "


Psalm 116.
8 For you have delivered my soul from death,
my eyes from tears,
my feet from stumbling.
9 I walk before the LORD
in the land of the living.
10 I kept my faith, even when I said,
‘I am greatly afflicted’;
11 I said in my consternation,
‘Everyone is a liar.’
Psalm 51
Psalm 51
To the leader. A Psalm of David, when the prophet Nathan came to him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba.
1 Have mercy on me, O God,
according to your steadfast love;
according to your abundant mercy
blot out my transgressions.
2 Wash me thoroughly from my iniquity,
and cleanse me from my sin.

3 For I know my transgressions,
and my sin is ever before me.
4 Against you, you alone, have I sinned,
and done what is evil in your sight,
so that you are justified in your sentence
and blameless when you pass judgement.
5 Indeed, I was born guilty,
a sinner when my mother conceived me.

6 You desire truth in the inward being;*
therefore teach me wisdom in my secret heart.



5But if our injustice serves to confirm the justice of God, what should we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us?
6By no means! For then how could God judge the world?
In verses 6 and 7 we are told that the justice of God judges us guilty; we deserve " the wrath of God".
7But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), ‘Let us do evil so that good may come’? Their condemnation is deserved!


Justice and mercy is what Paul seems to be examining as it applies to humanity. as this comment of Rashi to Gen 1.1 explains:
God’s creation of the heavens and the earth: But it does not say “of the Lord’s creation of” (i.e., it should say “of the Lord God’s creation of” as below 2:4 “on the day that the Lord God made earth and heaven”) for in the beginning it was His intention to create it with the Divine Standard of Justice, but he perceived that the world would not endure; so He preceded it with the Divine Standard of Mercy, allying it with the Divine Standard of Justice, and that is the reason it is written:“on the day the Lord God made earth and heaven.”

http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... rashi=true

outhouse
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Re: Saint or Sinner?

Post by outhouse » Fri Oct 02, 2015 9:53 am

Bernard Muller wrote:Why would you say that?
Because your accusing him of telling lies, and your out of context. It makes me question your ability to comprehend their theological motives and context.

but the evidence indicates he did confess it.
ONLY if you interpret poorly out of context.

the apostle is not speaking of himself, nor of his lie of unbelief, in his state of unregeneracy; but in the person of a sinful man, "for every man is a liar", Romans 3:4, as he says, "I speak as a man", Romans 3:5; representing a wicked man, who from what was before said, might collect this as the sense of it, that the truth of God is illustrated by the lies of men: and so much may be owned as the apostle's sense, that the truth of God is commended, illustrated, and made to abound, when it is asserted, that he is true and faithful, and every man is a liar, fallacious, and deceitful; "let God be true, and every man a liar",

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