Classical roots to some of the things Jesus is said to say

[DCHindley]

1) Plato, Phaedrus 233d-e

"[233d] Besides, if you ought to grant favors to those who ask for them most eagerly, you ought in other matters also to confer benefits, not on the best, but on the most needy; for they will be most grateful, since they are relieved of the greatest ills. And then, too, [233e] at private entertainments you ought not to invite your friends, but beggars and those who need a meal; for they will love you and attend you and come to your doors and be most pleased and grateful, and will call down many blessings upon your head."

Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 9 translated by Harold N. Fowler. 1925.

[233δ] ἔτι δὲ εἰ χρὴ τοῖς δεομένοις μάλιστα χαρίζεσθαι, προσήκει καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις μὴ τοὺς βελτίστους ἀλλὰ τοὺς ἀπορωτάτους εὖ ποιεῖν: μεγίστων γὰρ ἀπαλλαγέντες κακῶν πλείστην χάριν αὐτοῖς εἴσονται. καὶ μὲν δὴ καὶ ἐν ταῖς [233ε] ἰδίαις δαπάναις οὐ τοὺς φίλους ἄξιον παρακαλεῖν, ἀλλὰ τοὺς προσαιτοῦντας καὶ τοὺς δεομένους πλησμονῆς: ἐκεῖνοι γὰρ καὶ ἀγαπήσουσιν καὶ ἀκολουθήσουσιν καὶ ἐπὶ τὰς θύρας ἥξουσι καὶ μάλιστα ἡσθήσονται καὶ οὐκ ἐλαχίστην χάριν εἴσονται καὶ πολλὰ ἀγαθὰ αὐτοῖς εὔξονται.

Platonis Opera, ed. John Burnet. 1903.

Compare to

Luke 14:12-14:

12 He said also to the man who had invited him, "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. 13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

RSV

12 Ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ τῷ κεκληκότι αὐτόν· ὅταν ποιῇς ἄριστον ἢ δεῖπνον, μὴ φώνει τοὺς φίλους σου μηδὲ τοὺς ἀδελφούς σου μηδὲ τοὺς συγγενεῖς σου μηδὲ γείτονας πλουσίους, μήποτε καὶ αὐτοὶ ἀντικαλέσωσίν σε καὶ γένηται ἀνταπόδομά σοι. 13 ἀλλ᾽ ὅταν δοχὴν ποιῇς, κάλει πτωχούς, ἀναπείρους, χωλούς, τυφλούς· 14 καὶ μακάριος ἔσῃ, ὅτι οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἀνταποδοῦναί σοι, ἀνταποδοθήσεται γάρ σοι ἐν τῇ ἀναστάσει τῶν δικαίων.

GNT

Thanks to Vridar for making me aware of this.

DCH

[DCHindley]

2) Plutarch, Lives 39, quoting Roman politician Tiberius Gracchus:

"The wild beasts of Italy have their caves to retire to; but the brave men who spill their blood in her cause have nothing left but air and light. Without houses, without any settled habitations, they wander from place to place with their wives and children; and their generals do but mock them, when, at the head of their armies, they exhort their men to fight for their sepulchers and domestic gods: for, among such numbers, perhaps there is not a Roman who has an altar that belonged to his ancestors, or a sepulcher in which their ashes rest. The private soldiers fight and die to advance the wealth and luxury of the great; and they are called masters of the world, while they have not a foot of ground in their possession."

Compare to

Matthew 8:20: "And Jesus said to him, 'Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.'"

Luke 9:58: "And Jesus said to him, 'Foxes have holes, and birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man has nowhere to lay his head.'"

RSV

This one was brought to my attention, of all places, through a book by the Marxist writer Karl Kautsky.

[DCHindley]

3) Herodotus, Histories, book 1.141.1-4, citing Cyrus the Great response to the Greeks who wanted to become allied with him now that he had defeated Lydia, but who had previously snubbed his request that they desert to his side:

1 As soon as the Lydians had been subjugated by the Persians, the Ionians and Aeolians sent messengers to Cyrus, offering to be his subjects on the same terms as those which they had under Croesus. After hearing what they proposed, Cyrus told them a story. Once, he said, there was a flute-player who saw fish in the sea and played upon his flute, thinking that they would come out on to the land. 2 Disappointed of his hope, he cast a net and gathered it in and took out a great multitude of fish; and seeing them leaping, "You had best," he said, "stop your dancing now; you would not come out and dance before, when I played to you." 3 The reason why Cyrus told the story to the Ionians and Aeolians was that the Ionians, who were ready to obey him when the victory was won, had before refused when he sent a message asking them to revolt from Croesus. 4 So he answered them in anger. ...

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.01.0126

1 Ἴωνες δὲ καὶ Αἰολέες, ὡς οἱ Λυδοὶ τάχιστα κατεστράφατο ὑπὸ Περσέων, ἔπεμπον ἀγγέλους ἐς Σάρδις παρὰ Κῦρον, ἐθέλοντες ἐπὶ τοῖσι αὐτοῖσι εἶναι τοῖσι καὶ Κροίσῳ ἦσαν κατήκοοι. ὁ δὲ ἀκούσας αὐτῶν τὰ προΐσχοντο ἔλεξέ σφι λόγον, ἄνδρα φὰς αὐλητὴν ἰδόντα ἰχθῦς ἐν τῇ θαλάσσῃ αὐλέειν, δοκέοντα σφέας ἐξελεύσεσθαι ἐς γῆν· 2 ὡς δὲ ψευσθῆναι τῆς ἐλπίδος, λαβεῖν ἀμφίβληστρον καὶ περιβαλεῖν τε πλῆθος πολλὸν τῶν ἰχθύων καὶ ἐξειρύσαι, ἰδόντα δὲ παλλομένους εἰπεῖν ἄρα αὐτὸν πρὸς τοὺς ἰχθῦς παύεσθέ μοι ὀρχεόμενοι, ἐπεῖ οὐδ᾽ ἐμέο αὐλέοντος ἠθέλετε ἐκβαίνειν ὀρχεόμενοι. 3 Κῦρος μὲν τοῦτον τὸν λόγον τοῖσι Ἴωσι καὶ τοῖσι Αἰολεῦσι τῶνδε εἵνεκα ἔλεξε, ὅτι δὴ οἱ Ἴωνες πρότερον αὐτοῦ Κύρου δεηθέντος δι᾽ ἀγγέλων ἀπίστασθαι σφέας ἀπὸ Κροίσου οὐκ ἐπείθοντο, τότε δὲ κατεργασμένων τῶν πρηγμάτων ἦσαν ἕτοιμοι πείθεσθαι Κύρῳ. 4 ὃ μὲν δὴ ὀργῇ ἐχόμενος ἔλεγέ σφι τάδε· Ἴωνες δὲ ὡς ἤκουσαν τούτων ἀνενειχθέντων ἐς τὰς πόλιας, τείχεά τε περιεβάλοντο ἕκαστοι καὶ συνελέγοντο ἐς Πανιώνιον οἱ ἄλλοι, πλὴν Μιλησίων· πρὸς μούνους γὰρ τούτους ὅρκιον Κῦρος ἐποιήσατο ἐπ᾽ οἷσί περ ὁ Λυδός. τοῖσι δὲ λοιποῖσι Ἴωσι ἔδοξε κοινῷ λόγῳ πέμπειν ἀγγέλους ἐς Σπάρτην δεησομένους Ἴωσι τιμωρέειν.

http://www.mikrosapoplous.gr/en/texts1en.htm

compare to

Matthew 11:16-17:

16 But whereunto shall I esteem this generation to be like? It is like to children sitting in the market place. 17 Who crying to their companions say: 'We piped to you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.'

RSV

16 Τίνι δὲ ὁμοιώσω τὴν γενεὰν ταύτην; ὁμοία ἐστὶν παιδίοις καθημένοις ἐν ταῖς ἀγοραῖς ἃ προσφωνοῦντα τοῖς ἑτέροις 17 λέγουσιν· ηὐλήσαμεν ὑμῖν καὶ οὐκ ὠρχήσασθε, ἐθρηνήσαμεν καὶ οὐκ ἐκόψασθε.

GNT

Luke 7:31-32:

31 To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children sitting in the market place and calling to one another, 'We piped to you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not weep.'

RSV

31 Τίνι οὖν ὁμοιώσω τοὺς ἀνθρώπους τῆς γενεᾶς ταύτης καὶ τίνι εἰσὶν ὅμοιοι; 32 ὅμοιοί εἰσιν παιδίοις τοῖς ἐν ἀγορᾷ καθημένοις καὶ προσφωνοῦσιν ἀλλήλοις ἃ λέγει· ηὐλήσαμεν ὑμῖν καὶ οὐκ ὠρχήσασθε, ἐθρηνήσαμεν καὶ οὐκ ἐκλαύσατε.

GNT

[DCHindley]

4) Aesop's Fables

290. The Fisherman and his Pipe, translated by Laura Gibbs (2002)

There was once a fisherman who saw some fish in the sea and played on his pipe, expecting them to come out onto the land. When his hopes proved false, he took a net and used it instead, and in this way he was able to haul in a huge catch of fish. As the fish were all leaping about, the fisherman remarked, 'I say, enough of your dancing, since you refused to dance when I played my pipe for you before!'

108. A Fisherman and his Pipe, Sir Roger L'Estrange (1692)

A Fisherman that understood Piping better than Netting, set himself down upon the side of a River, and touch’d his Flute, but not a Fish came near him. Upon this, he laid down his Pipe and cast his Net, which brought him a very great Draught. The Fish fell a frisking in the Net, and the Fisherman observing it; what Sots are these (says he) that would not dance when I play’d to ‘em, and will be dancing now without Musick!

THE MORAL. There are certain Rules and Methods for the doing of all Things in this World; and therefore let every Man stick to the Business he understands, and was brought up to, without making one Profession interfere with another.

11. The Fisherman Piping, G F Townsend (1867)

A FISHERMAN skilled in music took his flute and his nets to the seashore. Standing on a projecting rock, he played several tunes in the hope that the fish, attracted by his melody, would of their own accord dance into his net, which he had placed below. At last, having long waited in vain, he laid aside his flute, and casting his net into the sea, made an excellent haul of fish. When he saw them leaping about in the net upon the rock he said: 'O you most perverse creatures, when I piped you would not dance, but now that I have ceased you do so merrily.'

Babrius #9:

Ἁλιεύς τις αὐλοὺς εἶχε καὶ σοφῶς ηὔλει·
καὶ δή ποτ' ὄψον ἐλπισας ἀμοχθήτως
πολὺ πρὸς αὐλῶν ἡδυφωνίην ἥξειν,
τὸ δίκτυον θεὶς ἐτερέτιζεν εὐμούσως.
ἐπεὶ δὲ φυσῶν ἔκαμε καὶ μάτην ηὔλει,
βαλὼν σαγήνην εἷλκεν ἰχθύων πλήρη.
ἐπὶ γῆς δ' ἰδων σπαίροντας ἄλλον ἀλλοίως,
τοιαῦτ' ἐκερτόμησε τὸν βόλον πλύνων·
"ἄναυλα νῦν ὀρχεῖσθε. κρεῖσσον ἦν ὕμας
πάλαι χορεύειν, ἡνίκ' εἰς χοροὺς ηὔλουν."

[Οὐκ ἔστιν ἀπόνως οὐδ' ἀλύοντα κερδαίνειν.
ὅταν καμὼν δὲ τοῦθ' ἕλῃς ὅπερ βούλει,
τὸ κερτομεῖν σοι καιρός ἐστι καὶ παίζειν.]

Aphthonius 33:

Μῦθος ὁ τοῦ ἁλιέως καὶ τοῦ αὐλητοῦ παραινῶν ταῖς τέχναις προσφόρως χρήσασθαι.

Ἀνὴρ ἁλιεὺς ὁμοῦ καὶ αὐλεῖν ἐπιστάμενος, τοὺς αὐλοὺς λαβὼν καὶ τὰ δίκτυα παρὰ τὴν θάλασσαν, οὐδὲν εἶχε λαβεῖν: ὡς δὲ τοῖς αὐλοῖς ἠπόρει θηρᾶν, τούτους ἀφεὶς ἐπὶ τὸ δίκτυον ᾔει καὶ χρώμενος εἶλεν οὓς αὐλῶν οὐκ ἐθήρασε.

Πέρας αἱ τέχναι τοῖς προσήκουσι πράγμασι νέμουσιν.

Chambry 24

Ἁλιεὺς αὐλῶν.

Ἁλιεὺς αὐλητικῆς ἔμπειρος, ἀναλαβὼν αὐλοὺς καὶτὰ δίκτυα, παρεγένετο εἰς τὴν θάλασσαν καὶ στὰς ἐπί τινος προβλῆτος πέτρας, τὸ μὲν πρῶτον ᾖδε, νομίζων αὐτομάτους πρὸς τὴν ἡδυφωνίαν τοὺς ἰχθύας ἐξαλεῖσθαι πρὸς αὐτὸν. Ὡς δὲ, αὐτοῦ ἐπὶ πολὺ διατεινομένου, οὐδὲν πέρας ἠνύετο, ἀποθέμενος τοὺς αὐλοὺς ἀνείλετο τὸ ἀμφίβληστρον καὶ βαλὼν κατὰ τοῦ ὕδατος πολλοὺς ἰχθύας ἤγρευσεν. Ἐκβαλὼν δὲ αὐτοὺς ἀπὸ τοῦ δικτύου ἐπὶ τὴν ἠιόνα, ὡς ἐθεάσατο σπαίροντας, ἔφη· Ὦ κάκιστα ζῷα, ὑμεῖς, ὅτε μὲν ηὔλουν, οὐκ ὠρχεῖσθε, νῦν δὲ, ὅτε πέπαυμαι, τοῦτο πράττετε."

Πρὸς τοὺς παρὰ καιρόν τι πράττοντας ὁ λόγος εὔκαιρος.

http://mythfolklore.net/aesopica/oxford/290.htm

compare to

Matthew 11:16-17:

16 But whereunto shall I esteem this generation to be like? It is like to children sitting in the market place. 17 Who crying to their companions say: 'We piped to you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not mourn.'

RSV

16 Τίνι δὲ ὁμοιώσω τὴν γενεὰν ταύτην; ὁμοία ἐστὶν παιδίοις καθημένοις ἐν ταῖς ἀγοραῖς ἃ προσφωνοῦντα τοῖς ἑτέροις 17 λέγουσιν· ηὐλήσαμεν ὑμῖν καὶ οὐκ ὠρχήσασθε, ἐθρηνήσαμεν καὶ οὐκ ἐκόψασθε.

GNT

Luke 7:31-32:

31 To what then shall I compare the men of this generation, and what are they like? 32 They are like children sitting in the market place and calling to one another, 'We piped to you, and you did not dance; we wailed, and you did not weep.'

RSV

"Aesop" is a mighty murky figure in folklore. If I was to weight Aesop as a source, I'd place more credence in Herodotus' version.

[DCHindley]

These four examples (well, 3 & 4 are related, depending on whether Herodotus/Cyrus was alluding to a saying attributed to a real "Aesop", or "Aesop" is just a collective name for these kind of moralistic animal fables) were all that I could come up with off the top of my head, with a lot of background research.

If anyone is aware of any others, please offer your examples. There are likely many more. I guess you can also check the early humanists, such as J J Wetstein, Novum Testamentum Graecum, 2 vols, 1751-2.

Have fun with that ...

[DCHindley]

5) Lucian of Samosata (ca. 125 CE – after 180 CE, maybe as late as 200 CE) refers to the fable twice, apparently as familiar to his readers.

Remarks addressed to an illiterate book-fancier, 30, (ca. 170 CE) he writes:

“So it is with you [the ignorant book collector]: you might, to be sure, lend your books to someone else who wants them, but you cannot use them yourself. But you never lent a book to anyone; you act like the dog in the manger, who neither eats the grain herself nor lets the horse eat it, who can.”

καὶ σὺ τοίνυν ἄλλῳ μὲν δεηθέντι χρήσειας ἂν τὰ βιβλία, χρήσασθαι δὲ αὐτὸς οὐκ ἂν δύναιο. καίτοι οὐδὲ ἔχρησάς τινι βιβλίον πώποτε, ἀλλὰ τὸ τῆς κυνὸς ποιεῖς τῆς ἐν τῇ φάτνῃ κατακειμένης, ἣ οὔτε αὐτὴ τῶν κριθῶν ἐσθίει οὔτε τῷ ἵππῳ δυναμένῳ φαγεῖν ἐπιτρέπει.

Lucian, with an English Translation by A. M. Harmon (vol. 3 of 8, 1921)

In the play Timon, 14, Lucian has Zeus speak to Plutus (god of wealth) about the way misers hoard him (wealth) without benefiting from him:

“for they [i.e., misers] thought it enjoyment enough, not that they were able to enjoy [i.e., riches]
themselves, but that they were shutting out everyone else from a share in the enjoyment, like the dog
in the manger that neither ate the barley herself nor permitted the hungry horse to eat it.”

ἱκανὴν ἀπόλαυσιν οἰομένους οὐ τὸ αὐτοὺς ἀπολαύειν ἔχειν, ἀλλὰ τὸ μηδενὶ μεταδιδόναι τῆς ἀπολαύσεως, καθάπερ τὴν ἐν τῇ φάτνῃ κύνα μήτε αὐτὴν ἐσθίουσαν τῶν κριθῶν μήτε τῷ ἵππῳ πεινῶντι ἐπιτρέπουσαν.

Lucian, with an English Translation by A. M. Harmon (vol. 2 of 8, 1915)

compare to

Gospel of Thomas, 102: Jesus said: Woe to the Pharisees, for they are like a dog lying in the manger of the cattle; for he neither eats nor does he let the cattle eat.

the closest NT parallel would be:

Luke 11:52:

Woe unto you, lawyers! for ye have taken away the key of knowledge: ye entered not in yourselves, and them that were entering in ye hindered

or

Matt 23:13:

But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.

This one is not so weighty as a Plato (1) or Plutarch (2) or even Herodotus (3), and may have equal weight to Aesop (4), as it seems to me that Lucian and his "crowd" had a certain acquaintance with Christians, and could have heard of the parable of the dog in the manger in the GOT.

[andrewcriddle]

1) Plato, Phaedrus 233d-e

"[233d] Besides, if you ought to grant favors to those who ask for them most eagerly, you ought in other matters also to confer benefits, not on the best, but on the most needy; for they will be most grateful, since they are relieved of the greatest ills. And then, too, [233e] at private entertainments you ought not to invite your friends, but beggars and those who need a meal; for they will love you and attend you and come to your doors and be most pleased and grateful, and will call down many blessings upon your head."

Plato in Twelve Volumes, Vol. 9 translated by Harold N. Fowler. 1925.

[233δ] ἔτι δὲ εἰ χρὴ τοῖς δεομένοις μάλιστα χαρίζεσθαι, προσήκει καὶ τοῖς ἄλλοις μὴ τοὺς βελτίστους ἀλλὰ τοὺς ἀπορωτάτους εὖ ποιεῖν: μεγίστων γὰρ ἀπαλλαγέντες κακῶν πλείστην χάριν αὐτοῖς εἴσονται. καὶ μὲν δὴ καὶ ἐν ταῖς [233ε] ἰδίαις δαπάναις οὐ τοὺς φίλους ἄξιον παρακαλεῖν, ἀλλὰ τοὺς προσαιτοῦντας καὶ τοὺς δεομένους πλησμονῆς: ἐκεῖνοι γὰρ καὶ ἀγαπήσουσιν καὶ ἀκολουθήσουσιν καὶ ἐπὶ τὰς θύρας ἥξουσι καὶ μάλιστα ἡσθήσονται καὶ οὐκ ἐλαχίστην χάριν εἴσονται καὶ πολλὰ ἀγαθὰ αὐτοῖς εὔξονται.

Platonis Opera, ed. John Burnet. 1903.

Compare to

Luke 14:12-14:

12 He said also to the man who had invited him, "When you give a dinner or a banquet, do not invite your friends or your brothers or your kinsmen or rich neighbors, lest they also invite you in return, and you be repaid. 13 But when you give a feast, invite the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind, 14 and you will be blessed, because they cannot repay you. You will be repaid at the resurrection of the just."

RSV

12 Ἔλεγεν δὲ καὶ τῷ κεκληκότι αὐτόν· ὅταν ποιῇς ἄριστον ἢ δεῖπνον, μὴ φώνει τοὺς φίλους σου μηδὲ τοὺς ἀδελφούς σου μηδὲ τοὺς συγγενεῖς σου μηδὲ γείτονας πλουσίους, μήποτε καὶ αὐτοὶ ἀντικαλέσωσίν σε καὶ γένηται ἀνταπόδομά σοι. 13 ἀλλ᾽ ὅταν δοχὴν ποιῇς, κάλει πτωχούς, ἀναπείρους, χωλούς, τυφλούς· 14 καὶ μακάριος ἔσῃ, ὅτι οὐκ ἔχουσιν ἀνταποδοῦναί σοι, ἀνταποδοθήσεται γάρ σοι ἐν τῇ ἀναστάσει τῶν δικαίων.

GNT

Thanks to Vridar for making me aware of this.

DCH

There are several layers of irony in Phaedrus, but at face value Lysias as remembered by Phaedrus as recorded by Plato is not arguing that one should genuinely give parties to the needy but undeserving. The argument is that a young person should choose the most eminent of his suitors rather than the most infatuated. The alternative leads to the general position of giving benefits to those who need them rather than to those who deserve them, which is treated as a reductio ad absurdum.

Andrew Criddle

[DCHindley]

There are several layers of irony in Phaedrus, but at face value Lysias as remembered by Phaedrus as recorded by Plato is not arguing that one should genuinely give parties to the needy but undeserving. The argument is that a young person should choose the most eminent of his suitors rather than the most infatuated. The alternative leads to the general position of giving benefits to those who need them rather than to those who deserve them, which is treated as a reductio ad absurdum.

Quite so. And I would not try to suggest that the gospel writers and/or Jesus himself used the saying of Plato (or Plutarch, or Herodotus) exactly as the original author meant it in the source work. However, if these kinds of works were routinely taught by tutors to those children lucky enough to have received any sort of formal "Greek" education (the elite class and some of their slaves/freedmen), some of it, if only in bowdlerized form, circulated in the market places or homes as regular folks congregated and chatted, as regular folks do in all ages, and spun this way or that.

My point, though, is that these allusions have political overtones. In this case, this little ditty by Plato was used to support Jesus' (imputed?) agenda to overturn power relationships.

In the case of Tiberius Gracchus, Tiberius & his brother Gaius had embarked on an attempt to reform Roman law to limit large estate ownership for a variety of reasons, which in the case of the speech attributed to him by Plutarch, was to make way for the establishment of Colonies for discharged Roman soldiers, rather than have the land gifted to political hacks or connected persons so they can have huge estates. While the practice of establishing settlements for retired soldiers was also practiced by the Greeks, certainly this could be relevant for folks residing in traditionally Judean lands, because establishing colonies means displacing the already present occupants.

The most ominous allusion is that to the piper and those who would not dance to his tune. Herodotus's account of Cyrus is garbled in the NT examples, for sure. Yet in an atmosphere where there is expectation of a change of empire originating in Judean occupied regions, and 2nd Isaiah calling Cyrus YHWH's "anointed one" for his role in effecting the end of the Babylonian captivity, to suggest that Jesus (or whoever was his messianic choice) was "piping" a tune to the "children of this age" (the Roman empire) to acquiesce (submit if you will) to the world empire fated by God to come, can have a great deal of significance for interpreting what Jesus was supposed to be all about.

DCH

[outhouse]

Great examples of plagiarism that are not just the OT one's more known about.

[neilgodfrey]

Are you looking for Greek and Roman roots only? What about Philo?