Follow the Money

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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robert j
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Follow the Money

Post by robert j »

Despite feeble attempts by early catholics to tie-up loose ends, Paul’s collection for the saints in Jerusalem remains an embarrassment for the church establishment.

This money --- if it ever materialized --- leads nowhere.

Michael BG asked in another thread ---
How do you deal with Paul’s talk of a collection for Jerusalem (Gal 2:10, 1 Cor 16:1, 3, and Rom 15:25)?
The only means to address this question is to review the available evidence.

Some see the issue beginning here ---
“James, Cephas, and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship … they only asked that we should remember the poor, also the same thing that I was eager to do.” (Galatians 2:9-10).
The effort took shape in the first letter the Corinthians ---
“Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have directed the churches of Galatia you are to do also. On the first day of the week, let each of you put something aside, treasuring up whatever he may be prospered in, so that when I come no collections will be needed.” (1 Corinthins 16:1-2).
It was only in the letters to the Corinthians in which Paul wrote of a collection for the saints. 1/

The collection is front and center in 2 Corinthians. Confusingly, the final compiler combined several letters now found in our received letter, some out of chronological sequence (pt.2 in the link). Chapters 8 and 9 are entirely devoted to the collection for the saints in Jerusalem, however the two chapters are in reverse chronological sequence in our received text --- the events of 2 Corinthians chapter 8 happened after those of chapter 9. Titus returned from delivering a letter including chapter 8 and from attempting to complete the collection, and the Corinthians had accused Paul and Titus of trying to take advantage ---
“I did not burden you, yet being cunning I caught you by deceit. I did not take advantage of you by anyone I sent you. I urged Titus and I sent the brother with him. Titus did not take advantage of you.” (2 Corinthians 12:16-18).
That’s about the last we hear from Paul on the issue. Then comes the later apologetics.

The textual history of the letter Romans is not a settled issue. The vast majority of mainstream scholars promote the version found in the current NT --- quelle surprise. However, the mixed nature of the early manuscript record --- along with the early attestations --- can be used equally well to support a more original 14–chapter document (lacking chapters 15 and 16), and lacking the two addresses to Rome in chapter 1.

Portions of chapters 15 and 16 may have been used as attachments to an earlier version of the letter for use with specific various communities. But Romans 15:19-32 reeks of early catholic apologetics --- an interpolation attempting to tie-up a loose end. 2/

And even then, the best the apologetic interpolator was willing to offer was an excuse to deliver the collection later (read: ‘the check is in the mail’) ---
“Now, however, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints. For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.” (Romans 15:25-26).
Even the author of the mostly fictional Acts dared offer only a lame substitute story of Paul bringing “alms to my nation” in the temple (Acts 24:17-18). The author of the Acts of the Apostles --- in his bald-faced attempt to make Paul an early-catholic hero --- lacked adequate confidence to address the issue directly. If such a tradition of an actual delivery --- or attempted delivery --- of a collection for the saints in Jerusalem had existed, surely the author of Acts would have used the story to enhance Paul’s heroic status and to tie-up an embarrassing loose end.

But no --- only awkward silence.

I believe the best solution for the collection for the saints in Jerusalem is straightforward --- it was a scheme by Paul to fleece the prosperous Corinthians.

robert j


1/ The far away Macedonians are only mentioned in this regard in the Corinthian correspondence --- perhaps Paul was guilt-tripping the Corinthians. The collection is not mentioned in the letters addressed to the Macedonians. The mention in Romans 15:25-26 is addressed in the text and in the footnote below.

2/ I’m not prone to resort to interpolation to resolve difficult issues in Paul’s letters --- being confident of only a very few interpolations in the 5 letters generally considered authentic and addressed to his congregations, and in Romans. But Romans 15:17-32 is right near the top of my sparse list of interpolations for numerous reasons. As addressed in the link above, significant evidence both in early manuscripts and in early attestations lend support for an original letter lacking chapters 15 and 16 and the two addresses to Rome in chapter 1.
Last edited by robert j on Sun Oct 25, 2015 8:38 am, edited 2 times in total.
outhouse
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Re: Follow the Money

Post by outhouse »

robert j wrote: --- in his bald-faced attempt to make Paul an early-catholic hero --

.
I would not say that as much as, possibly used to combat possible negative traditions against Paul.


Remember to these early followers Paul was a very bad guy who persecuted them "violently". Helping a needy church is one way of making Paul more palatable to the public "so to speak" more so then hero status.


And of course we never do hear if he actually helped them in the end.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Follow the Money

Post by Peter Kirby »

robert j wrote:I believe the best solution for the collection for the saints in Jerusalem is straightforward --- it was a scheme by Paul to fleece the prosperous Corinthians.
It's an interesting idea, certainly. The suspicion is there.

For those who have wondered how the 'tentmaker' supported his ministry and writing, the letters themselves may provide the clue.
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
iskander
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Re: Follow the Money

Post by iskander »

robert j wrote:Despite feeble attempts by early catholics to tie-up loose ends, Paul’s collection for the saints in Jerusalem remains an embarrassment for the church establishment.

This money --- if it ever materialized --- leads nowhere.

Michael BG asked in another thread ---
How do you deal with Paul’s talk of a collection for Jerusalem (Gal 2:10, 1 Cor 16:1, 3, and Rom 15:25)?
The only means to address this question is to review the available evidence.

Some see the issue beginning here ---
“James, Cephas, and John, those reputed to be pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship … they only asked that we should remember the poor, also the same thing that I was eager to do.” (Galatians 2:9-10).
The effort took shape in the first letter the Corinthians ---
“Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have directed the churches of Galatia you are to do also. On the first day of the week, let each of you put something aside, treasuring up whatever he may be prospered in, so that when I come no collections will be needed.” (1 Corinthins 16:1-2).
It was only in the letters to the Corinthians in which Paul wrote of a collection for the saints. +++

The collection is front and center in 2 Corinthians. Confusingly, the final compiler combined several letters now found in our received letter, some out of chronological sequence (pt.2 in the link). Chapters 8 and 9 are entirely devoted to the collection for the saints in Jerusalem --- apparently represented by the Jerusalem Pillars.

Again, confusingly, the two chapters are in reverse chronological sequence in our received text --- the events of 2 Corinthians chapter 8 happened after those of chapter 9. Titus returned from delivering the later chapter 8 and attempting to complete the collection, and the Corinthians had accused Paul and Titus of trying to take advantage ---
“I did not burden you, yet being cunning I caught you by deceit. I did not take advantage of you by anyone I sent you. I urged Titus and I sent the brother with him. Titus did not take advantage of you.” (2 Corinthians 12:16-18).
That’s about the last we her from Paul on the issue. Then comes the later apologetics.

The textual history of the letter Romans is not a settled issue. The vast majority of mainstream scholars promote the version found in the current NT --- quelle surprise. However, the mixed nature of the early manuscript record --- along with the early attestations --- can be used equally well to support a more original 14–chapter document (lacking chapters 15 and 16), and lacking the two addresses to Rome in chapter 1.

Portions of chapters 15 and 16 may have been used as attachments to an earlier version of the letter for use with specific various communities. But Romans 15:19-32 reeks of early catholic apologetics --- an interpolation attempting to tie-up a loose end. ^^^

And even then, the best the apologetic interpolator was willing to offer was an excuse to deliver the collection later (read: ‘the check is in the mail’) ---
“Now, however, I am going to Jerusalem serving the saints. For Macedonia and Achaia were pleased to make a certain contribution for the poor among the saints in Jerusalem.” (Romans 15:25-26).
Even the author of the mostly fictional Acts dared offer only a lame substitute story of Paul bringing “alms to my nation” in the temple (Acts 24:17-18).
The author of the Acts of the Apostles --- in his bald-faced attempt to make Paul an early-catholic hero --- lacked adequate confidence to address the issue directly. If such a tradition of an actual delivery --- or attempted delivery --- of a collection for the Jerusalem saints had existed, surely the author of Acts would have used the story to enhance Paul’s heroic status and to tie-up an embarrassing loose end.

But no --- only awkward silence.

I believe the best solution for the collection for the saints in Jerusalem is straightforward --- it was a scheme by Paul to fleece the prosperous Corinthians.

robert j


+++ The far away Macedonians are only mentioned in this regard in the Corinthian correspondence --- perhaps Paul was guilt-tripping the Corinthians. The collection is not mentioned in the letters addressed to the Macedonians. The mention in Romans 15:25-26 is addressed in the text and in the footnote below.

^^^ I’m not prone to resort to interpolation to resolve difficult issues in Paul’s letters --- being confident of only a very few interpolations in the 5 letters generally considered authentic and addressed to his congregations, and in Romans. But Romans 15:17-32 is right near the top of my sparse list of interpolations for numerous reasons. As addressed in the link above, significant evidence both in early manuscripts and in early attestations lend support for an original letter lacking chapter 15 (and also lacking chapter 16 and the two addresses to Rome in chapter 1).
Despite feeble attempts by early catholics to tie-up loose ends, Paul’s collection for the saints in Jerusalem remains an embarrassment for the church establishment.

Is the Church ( any denomination ) embarrassed by Paul ? I am not aware of any embarrassment about Paul's collections.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Follow the Money

Post by Giuseppe »

WHO did say first that Paul was a "tentmaker"?
The idea remembers Moses in the desert...
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Follow the Money

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Giuseppe wrote:WHO did say first that Paul was a "tentmaker"?
Acts 18.3.
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