Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus angel

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MrMacSon
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Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus angel

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:00 pm

.
In a recent presentation, Carrier refers to Philo's description of an angel named Jesus based on an Old Testament passage in Zachariah. Carrier doesn't appear to state the exact passages, but does briefly show "On the Confusion of Tongues/Languages 62-63, 146-7", and "On Dreams 1.215; etc"

Philo describes this angel named Jesus as having the following attributes -
  • the first-born son of God
  • the celestial image of God
  • God's agent of creation
  • God's celestial High Priest
Watch from 1.35 --



Carrier says the attributes in that list correspond to particular NT epistle passages viz. -
  • the first-born son of God --- Romans 8:29
  • the celestial image of God - 2 Corinthians 4:4
  • God's agent of creation ---- 1 Corinthians 8:6
  • God's celestial High Priest -- Hebrews 2:17, 4:14, ...
Carrier then refers to Philippians 2:5-11, 1 Corinthians 15, stories about death & burial of Osiris in outer space, and references to Adam's burial in outer space in the Revelation of Moses, before moving to the Ascension of Isaiah and how it was being redacted [by a sect] around the same time the canonical Gospels were being written by 'another sect of Christianity': ~80-130AD/CE.

The prophet Isaiah has a vision in which "God explains how [the angel] Jesus affects salvation". The earliest redaction of the Ascension of Isaiah has 'Jesus' stay in outer space though 'He' descends to just below the moon where 'He' is crucified by Satan. 'He' is buried there before 'He' is resurrected to appear to select followers to send them out as missionaries.

Carrier then, from 6.46, refers to 2 Peter 1:16 and 2 Peter 2:1.
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Blood
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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Post by Blood » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:54 pm

Assuming Philo inspired the Jesus mythos, how come no patristic writer referred to this "prophecy"? Perhaps because they were unsure of when he lived?
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp

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Secret Alias
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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Post by Secret Alias » Mon Nov 02, 2015 5:58 pm

... or Philo never identifies a "Jesus angel." The angel from Zechariah is an is not a Jesus
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote

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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:01 pm

Blood wrote:... because they were unsure of when he lived?
he = Philo?

Carrier suggests the forged 2 Peter refers to a sect who noted the inter-sect rivalries but who's works & ideas were discarded or lost [as is likely to have happened for lots of sects as part of an evolutionary process involving quite a few parallel/overlapping and overtaking sects]

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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:04 pm

Secret Alias wrote:... or Philo never identifies a "Jesus angel." The angel from Zechariah ... is not a Jesus
I gues we need to look at the specific passages from Philo - "Confusion of Tongues 62-63, 146-7", & "On Dreams 1.215; etc" - and from Zechariah - to fully assess Carrier's propositions/theses.
and
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Blood
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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Post by Blood » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:28 pm

MrMacSon wrote:
Blood wrote:... because they were unsure of when he lived?
he = Philo?

Carrier suggests the forged 2 Peter refers to a sect who noted the inter-sect rivalries but who's works & ideas were discarded or lost [as is likely to have happened for lots of sects as part of an evolutionary process involving quite a few parallel/overlapping and overtaking sects]
Yes, by "he" I meant Philo.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp

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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Nov 02, 2015 6:58 pm

Blood wrote:Assuming Philo inspired the Jesus mythos, how come no patristic writer referred to this "prophecy"? Perhaps because they were unsure of when [Philo] lived?
20-25 BC/BCE to 40-50 AD/CE ??
  • http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/

    Philo
    • "Philo used philosophical allegory to attempt to fuse and harmonize Greek philosophy with Jewish philosophy. His method followed the practices of both Jewish exegesis and Stoic philosophy. His allegorical exegesis was important for several Christian Church Fathers, but he has barely any reception history within Rabbinic Judaism. He believed that literal interpretations of the Hebrew Bible would stifle humanity's view and perception of a God too complex and marvelous to be understood in literal human terms.[citation needed]

      "Some scholars hold that his concept of the Logos as God's creative principle influenced early Christology."
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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:04 pm

... [Philo] may have influenced Paul, his contemporary, and perhaps the authors of the Gospel of John (C. H. Dodd) and the Epistle to the Hebrews (R. Williamson and H. W. Attridge). In the process, he laid the foundations for the development of Christianity in the West and in the East, as we know it today. Philo's primary importance is in the development of the philosophical and theological foundations of Christianity. The church preserved the Philonic writings because Eusebius of Caesarea labeled the monastic ascetic group of Therapeutae and Therapeutrides, described in Philo's The Contemplative Life, as Christians, which is highly unlikely. Eusebius also promoted the legend that Philo met Peter in Rome. Jerome (345-420 C.E.) even lists him as a church Father ...

... But it seems that Philo also picked up his ancestral tradition, though as an adult, and once having discovered it, he put forward the teachings of the Jewish prophet, Moses, as "the summit of philosophy" (Op. 8), and considered Moses the teacher of Pythagoras (b. ca 570 B.C.E.) and of all Greek philosophers and lawgivers (Hesiod, Heraclitus, Lycurgus, to mention a few). For Philo, Greek philosophy was a natural development of the revelatory teachings of Moses. He was no innovator in this matter because already before him Jewish scholars attempted the same.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/


3. Technique of Exposition
Philo uses an allegorical technique for interpretation of the Hebrew myth and in this he follows the Greek tradition of Theagenes of Rhegium (second half of the sixth century B.C.E.). Theagenes used this approach in defense of Homer's theology against the detractors. He said that the myths of gods struggling with each other referred to the opposition between the elements; the names of gods were made to refer to various dispositions of the soul, e.g., Athena was reflection, Aphrodite, desire, Hermes, elocution ... Philo seeks out the hidden message beneath the surface of any particular text and tries to read back a new doctrine into the work of the past ...
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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:11 pm

4. Emphasis on Contemplative Life and Philosophy
The key emphasis in Philo's philosophy is contrasting the spiritual life, understood as intellectual contemplation, with the mundane preoccupation with earthly concerns, either as an active life or as a search for pleasure. Philo disdained the material world and physical body (Spec. leg. 3.1-6). The body was for Philo as for Plato, "an evil and a dead thing" (LA 3.72-74; Gig. 15), wicked by nature and a plotter against the soul (LA 3.69). But it was a necessary evil, hence Philo does not advocate a complete abnegation from life. On the contrary he advocates fulfilling first the practical obligations toward men and the use of mundane possessions for the accomplishment of praiseworthy works (Fug. 23-28; Plant. 167-168). Similarly he considers pleasure indispensable and wealth useful, but for a virtuous man they are not a perfect good (LA 3.69-72). He believed that men should steer themselves away from the physical aspect of things gradually ... Philo believed that man's final goal and ultimate bliss is in the "knowledge of the true and living God" (Decal. 81; Abr. 58; Praem. 14); "such knowledge is the boundary of happiness and blessedness" (Det. 86). To him, mystic vision allows our soul to see the Divine Logos (Ebr. 152) and achieve a union with God (Deut. 30:19-20; Post. 12). In a desire to validate the scripture as an inspired writing, he often compares it to prophetic ecstasy (Her. 69-70). His praise of the contemplative life of the monastic Therapeutae in Alexandria attests to his preference of bios theoreticos over bios practicos. He adheres to the Platonic picture of the souls descending into the material realm and that only the souls of philosophers are able to come to the surface and return to their realm in heaven (Gig. 12-15). Philo adopted the Platonic concept of the soul with its tripartite division. The rational part of the soul, however, is breathed into man as a part of God's substance. Philo speaks figuratively "Now, when we are alive, we are so though our soul is dead and buried in our body, as if in a tomb. But if it were to die, then our soul would live according to its proper life being released from the evil and dead body to which it is bound" (Op. 67-69; LA 1.108).

http://www.iep.utm.edu/philo/

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Re: Carrier proposes the NT Jesus based on Philo's Jesus ang

Post by MrMacSon » Mon Nov 02, 2015 7:18 pm

... Some scholars hold that [Philo's] concept of the Logos as God's creative principle influenced early Christology. Other scholars, however, deny direct influence but say both Philo and Early Christianity borrow from a common source ...

Philo

Exegesis
Philo bases his doctrines on the Old Testament, which he considers as the source and standard not only of religious truth but in general of all truth. Its pronouncements are for him divine pronouncements. They are the words of the ἱερὸς λόγος, θεῖος λόγος, ὀρθὸς λόγος [holy word, godly word, righteous word] [9] uttered sometimes directly and sometimes through the mouth of a prophet, especially through Moses, whom Philo considers the real medium of revelation ...

Philosophy
Philo represents the apex of Jewish-Hellenistic syncretism. His work attempts to combine Plato and Moses into one philosophical system.[12] His ethics were strongly influenced by Aristotelianism and Stoicism, preferring a morality of virtues without passions, such as lust/desire and anger, but with a "common human sympathy".[13]

Philo evolved an original teaching of Logos. The polysemic profusion of this word provided for its use in different connotation. Complying with the anthropomorphic description of God in Tanakh, Philo used logos in the meaning of an utterance. In Philo’s philosophy, God is absolutely transcendent: his notion is even more abstract than that of the Monad of Pythagoras or the Good of Plato. Only God’s existence is certain, no appropriate predicates can be conceived.[14] Following Plato, Philo equals matter to nothingness and sees its effect in fallacy, discord, damage, and decay of things.[15] This view enables Philo to combine the Jewish belief in creation with the Greek conviction about the formation of all things from the permanent matter.

Philo thought that God created and governed the world through mediators. Logos is the chief among them, the next to God, demiurge of the world. Logos is immaterial, an adequate image of God, his shadow, his firstborn son.[16] Being the mind of the Eternal, Logos is imperishable.[17] He is neither uncreated as God is, nor created as men are, but occupies a middle position. He has no autarkic power, only an entrusted one ...

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