Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

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kennethgreifer
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Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by kennethgreifer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 7:45 am

How do Christians explain their belief that God and the Messiah (son of man) are seen together in a vision or dream by Daniel in Daniel 7:13-14, if they believe that only one person (the Messiah) can be seen? I would guess that they would have to say that God can be seen in visions or dreams because you are not really seeing God, but just an image. I can't find this explanation anywhere. I am sure someone has discussed this in some scholarly book or religious book somewhere. Do Christians ever explain this anywhere or do they just ignore this confusing detail? When I ask ordinary Christians on the internet, they just say it is a mystery, and they are satisfied by that answer.

Kenneth Greifer

iskander
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Re: Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by iskander » Sun Dec 20, 2015 9:37 am

kennethgreifer wrote:How do Christians explain their belief that God and the Messiah (son of man) are seen together in a vision or dream by Daniel in Daniel 7:13-14, if they believe that only one person (the Messiah) can be seen? I would guess that they would have to say that God can be seen in visions or dreams because you are not really seeing God, but just an image. I can't find this explanation anywhere. I am sure someone has discussed this in some scholarly book or religious book somewhere. Do Christians ever explain this anywhere or do they just ignore this confusing detail? When I ask ordinary Christians on the internet, they just say it is a mystery, and they are satisfied by that answer.

Kenneth Greifer
In acts 7:55-56 the Son of Man was also seen by another witness. There are two independent witnesses .

Acts 7
55But filled with the Holy Spirit, he gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. 56‘Look,’ he said, ‘I see the heavens opened and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!’

lsayre
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Re: Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by lsayre » Sun Dec 20, 2015 10:07 am

Does anyone see the root of Daniel 7:13-14 in the Canaanite El and Baal (the original rider on the clouds)? Was Daniel a visionary, or a plagiarist?

kennethgreifer
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Re: Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by kennethgreifer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:54 am

Iskander,

I am just wondering how they explain seeing two "persons" of G-d in Daniel 7:13-14 when they believe only one "person" can be seen, unless they say that more than one person can be seen in visions and dreams, but not in reality. Seeing two of them together would not fit their beliefs, if I understand correctly.

Kenneth Greifer

kennethgreifer
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Re: Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by kennethgreifer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:55 am

Isayre,

Please don't change the topic here. Maybe you can start a new topic.

Kenneth Greifer

iskander
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Re: Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by iskander » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:21 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:Iskander,

I am just wondering how they explain seeing two "persons" of G-d in Daniel 7:13-14 when they believe only one "person" can be seen, unless they say that more than one person can be seen in visions and dreams, but not in reality. Seeing two of them together would not fit their beliefs, if I understand correctly.

Kenneth Greifer
First:
The two independent witnesses inform us of the reality existing in a world beyond our own experience.

As believer, I would say God is letting us know of the reality of divine existence and of our participation in that different existence : God is a physical reality , and the Son of Man is next to him .
End of the first reading of Daniel and Acts.


Is the first reading acceptable to you?

kennethgreifer
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Re: Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by kennethgreifer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:33 pm

Iskander,

I am not trying to approve or disapprove of what it says, I am just trying to understand how they explain seeing two persons of God in a vision. Usually Christians say that only one can be seen since Exodus 33:20 says people can't see God's face and live. Maybe you have a different explanation like Daniel didn't actually see God's face. I am just trying to understand this issue. I was thinking that in a vision, you could say that a person is not really seeing God, but only an image of God.

Kenneth Greifer

iskander
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Re: Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by iskander » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:46 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:Iskander,

I am not trying to approve or disapprove of what it says, I am just trying to understand how they explain seeing two persons of God in a vision. Usually Christians say that only one can be seen since Exodus 33:20 says people can't see God's face and live. Maybe you have a different explanation like Daniel didn't actually see God's face. I am just trying to understand this issue. I was thinking that in a vision, you could say that a person is not really seeing God, but only an image of God.

Kenneth Greifer
I am doing my best to answer your question as a believer,

First I would accept the evidence of two independent witnesses . Two witnesses have seen the Son of Man next to God . Daniel in a dream, Stephen in heaven.
Is this acceptable to you?

kennethgreifer
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Re: Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by kennethgreifer » Sun Dec 20, 2015 12:52 pm

I am not going to discuss this topic with you if you keep asking me to accept anything. I don't have to accept anything to discuss a topic. You are not dealing with the issue I brought up, but you want me to accept something. I don't know what you are talking about, or why you are repeating the same thing over and over. I am not here to discuss if two witnesses make something true because I can't verify anything from thousands of years ago. There are also false witnesses and false prophets. I can't tell you if someone is honest or dishonest just because two people say something is true. You can believe what you want, but I can't talk to you if you insist I accept what you say is true. Also, I can't see their visions to know what they saw or if they saw it, so I can't discuss what "prophets" say.

If you ask me again, I just will ignore you. I hate being mean, but we are discussing different topics.

Kenneth Greifer

iskander
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Re: Seeing two persons of trinity in Daniel 7:13-14?

Post by iskander » Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:09 pm

kennethgreifer wrote:I am not going to discuss this topic with you if you keep asking me to accept anything. I don't have to accept anything to discuss a topic. You are not dealing with the issue I brought up, but you want me to accept something. I don't know what you are talking about, or why you are repeating the same thing over and over. I am not here to discuss if two witnesses make something true because I can't verify anything from thousands of years ago. There are also false witnesses and false prophets. I can't tell you if someone is honest or dishonest just because two people say something is true. You can believe what you want, but I can't talk to you if you insist I accept what you say is true. Also, I can't see their visions to know what they saw or if they saw it, so I can't discuss what "prophets" say.

If you ask me again, I just will ignore you. I hate being mean, but we are discussing different topics.

Kenneth Greifer
I am trying to make you understand how the believer mind operates: You say that Moses wrote in exodus 3. 20, God has a face that kills when seen by humans , and that I should try to explain Acts accordingly. Moses means nothing in my Religion
Explaining to a believer is not the same as persuading an unbeliever.

Feel free :)
Last edited by iskander on Sun Dec 20, 2015 1:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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