Mark’s last supper: Did the Twelve eat the bread?

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

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1) The disciples und their problem with the bread

Mark 6:35-37
35 And when it grew late, his disciples came to him and said, “This is a desolate place, and the hour is now late. 36 Send them away to go into the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.” 37 But he answered them, “You give them something to eat.” And they said to him, “Shall we go and buy two hundred denarii worth of bread and give it to them to eat?”

Mark 6:52
for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened.

Mark 8:14-21
14 Now they had forgotten to bring bread, and they had only one loaf with them in the boat. 15 And he cautioned them, saying, “Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” 16 And they began discussing with one another the fact that they had no bread. 17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why are you discussing the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” They said to him, “Twelve.” 20 “And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” And they said to him, “Seven.” 21 And he said to them, “Do you not yet understand?”

2) Mark’s last supper

Mark does not say that the twelve eat the bread.	Mark explicitly writes that the twelve drink from the cup.
22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.”	23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

3) Normally, we would assume that the disciples eat the bread, but …

Mark 2:18-20 (A question about fasting)

18 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. And people came and said to him, “Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?” 19 And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20 The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.

[iskander]

23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

The use of blood to seal a covenantal relationship seems to be the correct procedure in ancient Israel. Perhaps Mark is emphasising that ' all' were sprinkled with the symbolic blood ( wine).


The Sinai Covenant in Ex 24. 1-8
6.And Moses took half the blood and put it into the basins, and half the blood he cast onto the altar

And Moses took half the blood: Who [first] divided it [exactly in half]? An angel came and divided it. -[From Lev. Rabbah 6:5] in the basins: Two basins, one for half the blood of the burnt offering and one for half the blood of the peace offering, [in order] to sprinkle them on the people. From here our Sages learned that our ancestors entered the covenant with circumcision, immersion [in a mikvah], and the sprinkling of the blood [of the sacrifice on the altar], for there is no sprinkling [of blood on a person] without immersion [preceding it]


7.And he took the Book of the Covenant and read it within the hearing of the people, and they said, "All that the Lord spoke we will do and we will hear."
8.And Moses took the blood and sprinkled [it] on the people, and he said, "Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord has formed with you concerning these words."


and sprinkled [it]: Heb. וַיִזְרֹק, an expression of sprinkling, and the Targum renders: and sprinkled it on the altar to atone for the people
http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo ... rashi=true

[rakovsky]

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1) The disciples und their problem with the bread

Mark 6:35-37
35 And when it grew late, his disciples came to him and said, “This is a desolate place, and the hour is now late. 36 Send them away to go into the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.” 37 But he answered them, “You give them something to eat.” And they said to him, “Shall we go and buy two hundred denarii worth of bread and give it to them to eat?”

Mark 6:52
for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened.

Mark 8:14-21
14 Now they had forgotten to bring bread, and they had only one loaf with them in the boat. 15 And he cautioned them, saying, “Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” 16 And they began discussing with one another the fact that they had no bread. 17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why are you discussing the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” They said to him, “Twelve.” 20 “And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” And they said to him, “Seven.” 21 And he said to them, “Do you not yet understand?”

2) Mark’s last supper

Mark does not say that the twelve eat the bread.	Mark explicitly writes that the twelve drink from the cup.
22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.”	23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

3) Normally, we would assume that the disciples eat the bread, but …

Mark 2:18-20 (A question about fasting)

18 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. And people came and said to him, “Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?” 19 And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20 The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.

Interesting. But if they are drinking wine, it is hard to say that they are fasting.

[toejam]

I think it's implied that they eat the bread when Jesus gives it to them. It says "while they were eating", so its implied that the bread gets eaten too.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

Interesting. But if they are drinking wine, it is hard to say that they are fasting.

Correct. That's clearly the first thought. On the other hand Mark's word for "fasting" (νηστεύω) means simply "not eating".

From the inseparable negative particle ne- (not) and esthio; not eating, i.e. Abstinent from food (religiously) -- fasting.

I think it's implied that they eat the bread when Jesus gives it to them. It says "while they were eating", so its implied that the bread gets eaten too.

I will not argue to the contrary. But it seems to me that the text rises this question and some others I will ask in further posts.

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

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To take one step further, I want to mention Mark's context. For I received from Tom Nelligan what I also deliver in this post: Mark's use of First Corinthians. Just a few points by Tom.

	Paul	Mark
participating in the Lord’s Supper in an unworthy manner	1 Cor 11:27 Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord.	Mark 14:18 And as they were reclining at table and eating, Jesus said, “Truly, I say to you, one of you will betray me, one who is eating with me.”
examining oneself	1 Cor 11:28 Let a person examine himself, then, and so eat of the bread and drink of the cup.	Mark 14:19 They began to be sorrowful and to say to him one after another, “Is it I?”
judgement by the Lord	1 Cor 11:29 For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body eats and drinks judgment on himself. 30 That is why many of you are weak and ill, and some have died. 31 But if we judged ourselves truly, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged by the Lord, we are disciplined so that we may not be condemned along with the world.	Mark 14:20 He said to them, “It is one of the twelve, one who is dipping bread into the dish with me. 21 For the Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.”
the new covenant	1 Cor 11:25 This cup is the new (καινή - kainē) covenant in my blood	Mark 14:24 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many. 25 Truly, I say to you, I will not drink again of the fruit of the vine until that day when I drink it new (καινὸν - kainon) in the kingdom of God.”

Tom's Diner

[iskander]

Where are these steps leading ?

[JoeWallack]

.
1) The disciples und their problem with the bread

Mark 6:35-37
35 And when it grew late, his disciples came to him and said, “This is a desolate place, and the hour is now late. 36 Send them away to go into the surrounding countryside and villages and buy themselves something to eat.” 37 But he answered them, “You give them something to eat.” And they said to him, “Shall we go and buy two hundred denarii worth of bread and give it to them to eat?”

Mark 6:52
for they did not understand about the loaves, but their hearts were hardened.

Mark 8:14-21
14 Now they had forgotten to bring bread, and they had only one loaf with them in the boat. 15 And he cautioned them, saying, “Watch out; beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the leaven of Herod.” 16 And they began discussing with one another the fact that they had no bread. 17 And Jesus, aware of this, said to them, “Why are you discussing the fact that you have no bread? Do you not yet perceive or understand? Are your hearts hardened? 18 Having eyes do you not see, and having ears do you not hear? And do you not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves for the five thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” They said to him, “Twelve.” 20 “And the seven for the four thousand, how many baskets full of broken pieces did you take up?” And they said to him, “Seven.” 21 And he said to them, “Do you not yet understand?”

2) Mark’s last supper

Mark does not say that the twelve eat the bread.	Mark explicitly writes that the twelve drink from the cup.
22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and after blessing it broke it and gave it to them, and said, “Take; this is my body.”	23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks he gave it to them, and they all drank of it. 24 And he said to them, “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.

3) Normally, we would assume that the disciples eat the bread, but …

Mark 2:18-20 (A question about fasting)

18 Now John’s disciples and the Pharisees were fasting. And people came and said to him, “Why do John’s disciples and the disciples of the Pharisees fast, but your disciples do not fast?” 19 And Jesus said to them, “Can the wedding guests fast while the bridegroom is with them? As long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast. 20 The days will come when the bridegroom is taken away from them, and then they will fast in that day.

JW:
Trying to use GMark as Textual Criticism evidence for what Paul originally wrote, let's try a model of:

1) Jesus Teaching = Misunderstood as literal/physical, meaning is figurative/spiritual.

Verses (rightly divided by classic Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene = Transfiguration)

2) Jesus Sacrifice = Misunderstood as figurative/spiritual, meaning is literal/physical.

Mark 14

Verse	Figurative	Literal	Commentary
22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and when he had blessed, he brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take ye: this is my body.	The bread in GMark represents teaching (figurative). That's why it is not literally eaten here.		Step 1 = The lesson is to receive Jesus' teaching (not to literally eat him). So those Catholics have followed Saint Peter's mislead by misunderstanding for 2,000 years.
23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to them: and they all drank of it. 24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.	-	The wine in GMark represents a sacrifice of blood (literal). That's why it is literally drunk here.	Step 2 = It is the literal sacrifice of Jesus that creates the New Covenant, not the Teachings. So the Catholics have also been wrong about that one for 2,000 years (based on the original Gospel)

Joseph

The New Porphyry

[Kunigunde Kreuzerin]

JW:
Trying to use GMark as Textual Criticism evidence for what Paul originally wrote, let's try a model of:

1) Jesus Teaching = Misunderstood as literal/physical, meaning is figurative/spiritual.

Verses (rightly divided by classic Greek Tragedy Recognition Scene = Transfiguration)

2) Jesus Sacrifice = Misunderstood as figurative/spiritual, meaning is literal/physical.

Mark 14

Verse	Figurative	Literal	Commentary
22 And as they were eating, he took bread, and when he had blessed, he brake it, and gave to them, and said, Take ye: this is my body.	The bread in GMark represents teaching (figurative). That's why it is not literally eaten here.		Step 1 = The lesson is to receive Jesus' teaching (not to literally eat him). So those Catholics have followed Saint Peter's mislead by misunderstanding for 2,000 years.
23 And he took a cup, and when he had given thanks, he gave to them: and they all drank of it. 24 And he said unto them, This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many.	-	The wine in GMark represents a sacrifice of blood (literal). That's why it is literally drunk here.	Step 2 = It is the literal sacrifice of Jesus that creates the New Covenant, not the Teachings. So the Catholics have also been wrong about that one for 2,000 years (based on the original Gospel)

1) So you would argue that the Twelve did not eat the bread? Fine ...

2) It seems to me that your model is maybe a little too simple, because it's clearly that at the feedings of the 5000 and 4000 the bread is eaten.

Mark 6:42 And they all ate and were satisfied. 43 And they took up twelve baskets full of broken pieces and of the fish. 44 And those who ate the loaves were five thousand men.
Mark 8:8 And they ate and were satisfied. And they took up the broken pieces left over, seven baskets full.

But it could be, that Mark wants to say exactly this with his use of different verbs (-forms) for "eat" - ἐσθίω and φάγω.

[iskander]

Mark speaks of a new covenant to replace the one God made with Moses. ( The Sinai Covenant in Ex 24. 1-8 )

Blood is the seal of this new covenant. That is why "Mark explicitly writes that the twelve drink from the cup.". It is the blood that has covenantal force .

Currently, Jewish law requires that circumcised converts undergo a ritual re-enactment called hatafat dam brit. Hatafat means “drop”; dam means “blood.”

" The ritual requires that a single drop of blood be taken from the site of the circumcision–more precisely, from the corona of skin that surrounds the head (or glans) of the penis. The person performing the hatafat dam brit applies an alcohol swab to the area and then pricks the skin either with a hypodermic needle or a sterile lancet. The blood is collected on a gauze pad, which may then be shown to three witnesses."

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article ... cumcision/

http://www.ritualwell.org/ritual/ceremo ... rit-ha-ben