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Iosephiana

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Iosephiana

Postby Secret Alias » Sat Jan 09, 2016 9:22 pm

It is generally assumed that 'John the Baptist' is a historical figure owing to the appearance of John in Josephus. However it should be remembered that no mention of John the Baptist appears anywhere in the rabbinic literature. Moreover the Marcionite gospel made no mention to Jesus's baptism by John nor any specific reference to a 'John the Baptist' only a 'baptism of John' which must have been viewed negatively because it was associated with the 'Creator god.' So I have wondered - because of a parallel interest in the question of 'the baptism of John ... whether it was of heaven or man' (the Marcionites would clearly have said that Jesus knew it was of man) is it possible that the first century gospel knew the 'baptism of John' to be associated with the ritual immersion of Jewish converts instituted by John Hyrcanus c. 100 CE? Pummer brings up some interesting arguments that water immersion may have been introduced by John Hyrcanus - https://books.google.com/books?id=5RVAC ... on&f=false This would solve the problem of a Marcionite gospel which referenced 'the baptism of John' negatively (associating it with 'men' rather than 'heaven') but no mention of any John the Baptist. Since Marcionite aimed their message at Jewish proselytes (i.e. those pagans who had been converted by Jews) rather than 'Gentiles' they would presumably have known who John was, and how his baptism was not 'of heaven' but merely a human conversion.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Tue Jan 19, 2016 7:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Postby Giuseppe » Sat Jan 09, 2016 11:46 pm

Very suggestive, thanks. It would be the first and last case in all the Human History when a Jewish king judaized forcedly no-Jew people.

I read too about this Hyrcanus:

5. However, this prosperous state of affairs moved the Jews to envy Hyrcanus; but they that were the worst disposed to him were the Pharisees, (28) who are one of the sects of the Jews, as we have informed you already. These have so great a power over the multitude, that when they say any thing against the King, or against the high priest, they are presently believed. Now Hyrcanus was a disciple of theirs, and greatly beloved by them. And when he once invited them to a feast, and entertained them very kindly, when he saw them in a good humour, he began to say to them, That “they knew he was desirous to be a righteous man, and to do all things whereby he might please God, which was the profession of the Pharisees also. However, he desired, that if they observed him offending in any point, and going out of the right way, they would recall him back and correct him.” On which occasion they attested to his being entirely virtuous; with which commendation he was well pleased. But still there was one of his guests there, whose name was Eleazar, a man of an ill temper, and delighting in seditious practices. This man said, “since thou desirest to know the truth, if thou wilt be righteous in earnest, lay down the high priesthood, and content thyself with the civil government of the people.” And when he desired to know for what cause he ought to lay down the high priesthood? the other replied, “We have heard it from old men, that thy mother had been a captive under the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes.” (29) This story was false, and Hyrcanus was provoked against him; and all the Pharisees had a very great indignation against him.

(Antiquities 13:288-292)

The reference to influence of Pharisees among the people may have inspired the motive of the popular pression on Pilate.

Eleazar that calls into question a woman - the mother of Hyrcanus - may have inspired the hate of the Baptist against the women of Herod.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Postby toejam » Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:43 am

I'm always weary of arguments from silence based on hypothetically reconstructed documents. John the Baptist is mentioned in Marcion's gospel according to Jason BeDuhn's reconstruction (Luke 9:19) by the way...
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Postby Giuseppe » Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:51 am

toejam wrote:I'm always weary of arguments from silence based on hypothetically reconstructed documents. John the Baptist is mentioned in Marcion's gospel according to Jason BeDuhn's reconstruction (Luke 9:19) by the way...

Yes, but 'John the Baptist' would be just the prophet of the Demiurg's messiah in Mcn, and it is very much hateful to see someone who forces people to be baptized in his name: the extraordinary coincidence between the negative representation of 'John the Baptist' in Mcn and John Hyrcanus is that that circumcision, that conversion, that baptism, was forced. And as any thing forced, it is not spiritual. Not only forced, but made on not-Jews. An act of hybris by the same Demiurg (that in marcionite theology had to limit his sadic actions only within Israel).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Postby Secret Alias » Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:12 am

But both of you miss the critical issues here. The first, a complete isolation of historical references to "John the Baptist" to orthodox Christian sources (Josephus, gospels). So similar issues to the historicity of Jesus. But are Josephus and the gospels one witness or two? It is generally acknowledged that Josephus altered the gospels and the gospels (with their claims about Jesus) influenced Josephus (Testamonium Flavianum). Second the Jews who were supposedly "all" baptized by John have no reference to John in their writings. I can't even understand John's baptism from a legal prospective in Judaism. Sure there are ritual provision for cleansing in the Torah. But the sense from the gospels goes beyond any of these limits. That people were "all" going to seek "cleansing" from uncategorized "sin" is beyond a doubt wholly mythical. There is nothing in the Pentateuch to support this and a lot to against it potentially (public nudity). Jewish scholars just went along with this BS because they lived under the hegemony of Christianity. But then you add the Marcionite gospel with no reference to a John the Baptist and only a negative reference to "the baptism of John" and as a man made innovation from the rule of God it gets very interesting
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Postby Giuseppe » Sun Jan 10, 2016 7:35 am

I see now a curious fact that escaped my attention before. Luke 3:14:
Then some soldiers asked him, "And what should we do?" He replied, "Don't extort money and don't accuse people falsely--be content with your pay."


It should be strange that John the Baptist is baptizing gentile people (Roman soldiers), while that was expected by John Hyrcanus. If also Josephus had said that John was baptizing not-Jews, then I would be very persuased that John the Baptist didnt' exist.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Postby Secret Alias » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:09 am

I have no idea what you are on about again
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Postby Giuseppe » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:16 am

What is not clear in my comment above? I'm saying that your parallelism could be definitively correct only and only if also Josephus had reported that John the Baptist did preach to gentiles and Jews, but so it is not.
Circumcision for gentiles is a very tyrannical act of Demiurg, and a sufficient reason to hate John Hyrcanus, from a marcionite point of view, but John the Baptist was totally Jew and intra-Jew in his preaching etc, therefore...
...Therefore I come back in believing as historical the prophet John the Baptist.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Postby Secret Alias » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:25 am

I still don't understand why this is decisive. Here are some argumente against the Josephus reference http://vridar.org/2011/01/29/5-reasons- ... -josephus/

The reference to the Mandaeans is a non starter because the oldest references have this John of the Mandaeans roughly contemporary with the destruction of the Temple.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Postby Secret Alias » Sun Jan 10, 2016 8:29 am

The reference to John as a rabbi is obviously anachronistic https://books.google.com/books?id=bKMkE ... es&f=false
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