Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

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Ben C. Smith
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

MrMacSon wrote:
Secret Alias wrote: ... the Syriac text is the most original form of the epistles.
Which epistles?
He is talking about the Syriac/short recension of the Ignatian epistles. There is also a middle recension and a long recension. Everyone currently agrees that the long recension is full of interpolations and pseudonymous epistles. A lot of scholars think the middle recension (of 7 epistles) is mostly genuine, and that the short/Syriac recension is an abridgement of it. Some hold that the Syriac (which consists of only 3 epistles) is genuine and the middle recension is already an expansion of it.

The situation is extremely complicated, with great minds on both sides of the two basic current positions; it is not a matter that can be settled easily.
Secret Alias wrote: I am not sure the Johannine parallels are all there or even there.
Johannine parallels to what? Apellian texts?
I think he means that the Johannine parallels in the Ignatian corpus may not exist in the Syriac recension. I myself have not checked. Sounds like he has not checked either. Someone should probably check.

Ben.
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

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Ben C. Smith wrote: He is talking about the Syriac/short recension of the Ignatian epistles. There is also a middle recension and a long recension. Everyone currently agrees that the long recension is full of interpolations and pseudonymous epistles. A lot of scholars think the middle recension (of 7 epistles) is mostly genuine, and that the short/Syriac recension is an abridgement of it. Some hold that the Syriac (which consists of only 3 epistles) is genuine and the middle recension is already an expansion of it.

The situation is extremely complicated, with great minds on both sides of the two basic current positions; it is not a matter that can be settled easily.
Cheers, Ben. Yes, the the Ignatian situation is very complicated. I posted something on it last week -
You've summarized it well in that paragraph here^.
  • As an aside, has anyone comprehensively summarized all the attestations* to the Ignatian texts in toto?
    * Attestation for the epistles: Polycarp 'to the Philippians' 9; 13.1-2; Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5.28.4 (anonymously quoting chapter 4 of Ignatius' 'to the Romans'); Origen, prologue of 'Song of Songs' and 'Homilies on Luke 4'; Eusebius, History of the Church 3.22, 36, 38.

    http://www.textexcavation.com/epistlesignatius.html
Secret Alias wrote: I am not sure the Johannine parallels are all there or even there.
MrMacson wrote: Johannine parallels to what? Apellian texts?
Ben C. Smith wrote: I think he means that the Johannine parallels in the Ignatian corpus may not exist in the Syriac recension. ... Someone should probably check.
Yes, it would be good to check if the Johannine parallels in the Ignatian corpus exist in the Syriac recension.
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

It would be good to see the arguments in favor of the originality or priority of the Syriac laid out in full.
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

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Let's start with how much more natural it is to add to Scripture than subtract large sections of text over and over and over again. The sheer scale of "subtraction" would be overwhelming. And then for what purpose? When it's only a few paragraphs long why not just forge something from scratch (like 3 Corinthians)? Moreover the length of the Catholic epistles (not just these but Paul too) are unnatural. The Syriac are the expected length of an epistle from a chained prisoner. The Catholic epistles ludicrously extended too long. How's that for a start in 2 minutes?
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

RParvus wrote:Here are some of the reasons I suspect a specifically Apellean provenance for the original GJohn....
Thanks, Roger. Nice, succinct summary of your argument.

This has more to do with Ignatius than with John, but, amidst the many objections borne of ulterior motives or weird pettiness, there is at least one which seems to be very much worth the effort of addressing: the Syriac recension of the Ignatiana. Do you have specific a priori reasons for accepting the middle recension? Is it just the consensus that has predominated since the days of Zahn and Lightfoot? Is it the nice fit everything seems to have once one assumes the seven letters are the original set? ...?
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Secret Alias wrote:Let's start with how much more natural it is to add to Scripture than subtract large sections of text over and over and over again. The sheer scale of "subtraction" would be overwhelming.
First... scripture? Please explain your calling of the Ignatian epistles scripture. Second, abridgement is a very common literary procedure. There exists an "abridged version" of many, many works. Finally, the putative additions on the thesis of Syriac priority are of exactly the same extent as the putative subtractions on the thesis of the middle recension's priority. Therefore, one can with all justification affirm that "the sheer scale of the addition would be overwhelming." The same exact range of text is at stake in both instances.
And then for what purpose?
That is a good question, and I may have more to say about that later.
When it's only a few paragraphs long why not just forge something from scratch (like 3 Corinthians)?
The "why not" argument may actually cut the other way in this case. What we call the Syriac recension is not all that we possess in Syriac of the Ignatian epistles. There are extracts, in Syriac, from all four of the epistles that the Syriac recension of three lacks. Lightfoot has this to say on pages 293-295 of Apostolic Fathers (part 2, volume 1; underlining mine):

It has been shown above..., that there existed in the early centuries a Syriac version of the seven Vossian letters, to which were appended the six additional spurious Ignatian letters. From this Syriac version the extant Armenian translation was made at a comparatively early date. It has been proved also... that this Syriac version was intimately connected with the Curetonian letters that where they cover the same ground, the two are identical that this identity is such as to preclude the supposition of accidental coincidence; and that therefore the only conclusion is the alternative, either that the Curetonian letters are abridged from the Syriac version of the Vossian letters, or that the Syriac version of the Vossian letters was an expansion from the Curetonian letters made by filling in the missing parts with the aid of the Greek. Which is the more probable supposition?

The abridgment theory is a very simple postulate. The abbreviator had only to run his pen through the passages which he wished to omit, to substitute here and there an epitome for a longer passage, to supply here and there a link of connexion, and to transcribe the whole. He need not even have taken so much trouble as this. He might have performed the work of abridging as he went on, currente calamo. A very few hours would serve to complete his task.

On the other hand the expansion theory is full of difficulties. We must suppose that some Syrian had before him the Curetonian letters in Syriac, and the Vossian letters in Greek that he carefully noted all the passages which were wanting or transposed or different in the former that he produced conformity by translating from the latter, supplying omissions, inverting transpositions, and altering divergences and that he did this in such a way as to produce a harmonious Syriac whole corresponding to the Greek whole which he had before him. If any one will take the trouble to compare the Vossian letters with the Curetonian, he will see what enormous labour and care such a work would involve. The relation is not one of simple curtailment or simple expansion. It is one either of careless, rough, and capricious manipulation, if the Curetonian letters be an abridgment of the Vossian, or of elaborate and consummate literary artifice, if the Vossian letters be an expansion of the Curetonian. This being the relation between the two forms, it will be seen at once how great must have been the labour of the Syrian who set himself to fulfil the task here supposed. Any one for instance, who will compare in the two recensions the 19th chapter of the Ephesians or the opening salutation of the Romans will be able to judge for himself. Or we may take the close of the Epistle to the Romans in the Curetonian Form, which incorporates two chapters from the Vossian Epistle to the Trallians, and try to imagine the amount of care and attention which would be required for such a task. Indeed it would have cost much less time and trouble to have translated the whole three letters direct from the Vossian Greek, than to have undertaken this elaborate piecing of the Curetonian Syriac. Moreover there is, I believe, no appreciable difference in style (so far as it can be inferred from the remaining fragments and from the Armenian translation) between the portions taken on this hypothesis from the preexisting Curetonian Syriac and the portions—whether isolated passages or whole letters—supposed to have been supplied by this second translator some centuries after. Yet it is not the uniformity of literalness for this version has a rough freedom characteristic of itself.

Note that this is not a generic argument from the ease or difficulty of expansion versus abridgement overall, in a hypothetical sense. It is an argument that follows specifically from the observation that, where the general Syriac and the Curetonian Syriac overlap, they are the same recension. This means that the middle Syriac recension, if I may so call it, was not a fresh translation from the Greek; rather, it absorbed the shorter Syriac version whole and added from the Greek only what what was lacking. The "why not" turns around completely at this point: indeed, why not simply translate afresh for such short works?

The question of why not to forge something anew that is so short, such as 3 Corinthians, has a ready answer in the antiquity of the Ignatian corpus; the motive to retain the good and most useful stuff from antiquity is strong. It really requires little explanation or justification.

Ben.
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

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Oh I don't know where to start as the resident contrarian. Let's start with the Syriac 'abridgment.' It's not a fucking abridgment!!!! WTF is the matter with people? Here I lay out this fact:

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/p/sho ... ho-is.html

It's ridiculous to assume that some asshole decided to take stuff from the Catholic text of to the Romans and then decided to divide the material into two new epistles. You see how fucking retarded most commentary is here and elsewhere. It isn't that the Syriac is derived from THREE 'genuine' epistles. No that would be true if it was a fucking 'abridgment.' But it's a fucking abridgment. Assuming the Syriac is secondary it would be properly identified as:

an abridgment, collation, removal of two names from the two epistles and the giving of a new generic identity to the third epistle.

Sorry this is unlikely. Rather it demonstrates the pattern we see hinted at with the Marcionite epistles (= Paul) AND the Marcionite gospel where material from one source has been divided into two or more 'new creations.' We've had lengthy discussions about the super gospel so you should see what's at stake here and how it is appropriate (I usually have to combat the morbid lack of imagination on the part of scholars). Clearly IMO contents from 'the third epistle' were divided and placed into 'to the Romans' and 'to the Trallians' (from what I remember) rather the ludicrous assumption that the fucking author of the Syriac epistle 'decided' to collate two separate passages into one new 'third letter.'

Do people actually look at primary source material (not directed at you Ben, I like you). I am directing this at others who have supposedly looked and examined this and other problems.
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

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Secret Alias wrote:Let's start with the Syriac 'abridgment.' It's not a fucking abridgment!!!! WTF is the matter with people? Here I lay out this fact:

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/p/sho ... ho-is.html
That link lays out no such fact; it lays out the texts (a necessary step toward discovering facts, but not in itself a fact as to what the Syriac actually is).

Are you saying that, even if the Syriac is secondary, it should still not be called an abridgement? Or is this your way of trying to make any conclusion that differs from yours seem ridiculous before it is even examined?

Then there is this...:
It's not a fucking abridgment!!!!
...versus this:
But it's a fucking abridgment. Assuming the Syriac is secondary it would be properly identified as:

an abridgment, collation, removal of two names from the two epistles and the giving of a new generic identity to the third epistle.
I can imagine a "not" missing there before the expletive, but then you go on to identify the Syriac, if secondary, as an abridgement anyway. This is very hard to follow.
Clearly IMO contents from 'the third epistle' were divided and placed into 'to the Romans' and 'to the Trallians' (from what I remember) rather the ludicrous assumption that the fucking author of the Syriac epistle 'decided' to collate two separate passages into one new 'third letter.'
What is the argument here, exactly? Why is it more likely that the contents of one epistle were distributed into two epistles than that passages from two epistles were drawn into one?
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

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Secret Alias wrote:.... Let's start with the Syriac 'abridgment.' It's not a fucking abridgment!!!! WTF is the matter with people? Here I lay out this fact:

http://stephanhuller.blogspot.com/p/sho ... ho-is.html

It's ridiculous to assume that some asshole decided to take stuff from the Catholic text of to the Romans and then decided to divide the material into two new epistles. You see how fucking retarded most commentary is here and elsewhere. It isn't that the Syriac is derived from THREE 'genuine' epistles. No that would be true if it was a fucking 'abridgment.' But it's a fucking abridgment. Assuming the Syriac is secondary it would be properly identified as:

an abridgment, collation, removal of two names from the two epistles and the giving of a new generic identity to the third epistle.

Sorry this is unlikely. Rather it demonstrates the pattern we see hinted at with the Marcionite epistles (= Paul) AND the Marcionite gospel where material from one source has been divided into two or more 'new creations.' We've had lengthy discussions about the super gospel so you should see what's at stake here and how it is appropriate (I usually have to combat the morbid lack of imagination on the part of scholars). Clearly IMO contents from 'the third epistle' were divided and placed into 'to the Romans' and 'to the Trallians' (from what I remember) rather the ludicrous assumption that the fucking author of the Syriac epistle 'decided' to collate two separate passages into one new 'third letter.'

Do people actually look at primary source material (not directed at you Ben, I like you). I am directing this at others who have supposedly looked and examined this and other problems.
How about -
Revised wrote:
.... Let's start with "the so=called Syriac 'recension' is unlikely to be an abridgment." See my argument here -
It's unlikely that someone decided to take stuff from the Catholic text of 'to the Romans' and then divided the material into two new 'epistles'. ....

It isn't that the Syriac is derived from THREE 'genuine' epistles: it's [not] an abridgment [??? - that bit was really unclear]

The Syriac/short recension demonstrates a pattern we see hinted at with the Marcionite epistles (= Paul and the Marcionite gospel) where material from one source has been divided into two or more 'new creations.' ... Clearly, IMhO, contents 'from' [for??] the 'third epistle' [which third epistle?* - the Syriac/short recension??] were divided [from???] and placed into 'to the Romans' and 'to the Trallians' (from what I remember); rather 'an author of the Syriac epistle' decided to collate two separate passages into one new 'third letter'.
    • ???

      * adjectives help (to clarify eg. which epistle - there are dozens, if not hundreds)
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Re: Apelles and the gospel of John.

Post by Secret Alias »

Of course it is hard to follow. Saying it is an 'abridgment' is simple easy to understand but ultimately untrue. So that's the choice we always have in these things a 'simple' and 'easy to understand' definition of things but none of it is true. That's the usual path. It's just easy to understand and gives us a good feeling that we've come to some conclusion or other.

In this case you have an 'anonymous third epistle' or 'no name' (sort of like the Marcionite gospel). People say that it is an 'abridgment' of the Epistle to the Romans (from Ignatius). That's simple, easy to understand but not true. Someone would have to believe that 'some asshole' (a term used before) took TWO long epistles from Ignatius and then took several sections from Romans one from Trallians and collated them together into an anonymous epistle.

I thought most people accepted that anonymous is invariably a sign of originality. But not in this case.

I find it far more believable that someone took an anonymous epistle broke it up and made it into many. This is what I think happened with the Pastorals FWIW. There are authentic nuggets in this text as well as Philemon etc. But I don't have time to argue.

One more thing though. Someone took a Greek text and then divided it in Syriac? Isn't it more natural to imagine a Syrian bishop speaking Syriac at this early date in Antioch? A secondary Syriac redaction of portions of two Greek epistles into an anonymous new text? Not very likely.
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