The calming of the sea.

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

The calming of the sea.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Pursuant to the recent discussion of the feeding of the 5000, which has since leaked over into other miracle stories, including especially the calming of the sea, I thought I might go ahead and take a look at how the Homeric hypothesis fares for this latter miracle. I am interested in seeing how strong the possible allusions to Homer are compared to the possible allusions to the Jewish scriptures.

Neil Godfrey has a helpful online summary of the similarities between the Marcan account in 4.35-41 and the Homeric account in book X of the Odyssey.

Let us begin with the texts in question, however. First, Mark 4.35-41:

35 On that day, when evening came, He says to them, “Let us go over to the other side.” 36 Leaving the crowd, they take Him along with them in the boat, just as He was; and other boats were with Him. 37 And there arises a fierce gale of wind, and the waves were breaking over the boat so much that the boat was already filling up. 38 Jesus Himself was in the stern, asleep on the cushion; and they wake Him and say to Him, “Teacher, do You not care that we are perishing?” 39 And He got up and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Hush, be still.” And the wind died down and it became perfectly calm. 40 And He said to them, “Why are you afraid? Do you still have no faith?” 41 They became very much afraid and said to one another, “Who then is this, that even the wind and the sea obey Him?”

Second, the relevant portion of Odyssey X:

Thence we went on to the Aeoli island where lives Aeolus son of Hippotas, dear to the immortal gods. It is an island that floats (as it were) upon the sea, iron bound with a wall that girds it. Now, Aeolus has six daughters and six lusty sons, so he made the sons marry the daughters, and they all live with their dear father and mother, feasting and enjoying every conceivable kind of luxury. All day long the atmosphere of the house is loaded with the savour of roasting meats till it groans again, yard and all; but by night they sleep on their well-made bedsteads, each with his own wife between the blankets. These were the people among whom we had now come.

Aeolus entertained me for a whole month asking me questions all the time about Troy, the Argive fleet, and the return of the Achaeans. I told him exactly how everything had happened, and when I said I must go, and asked him to further me on my way, he made no sort of difficulty, but set about doing so at once. Moreover, he flayed me a prime ox-hide to hold the ways of the roaring winds, which he shut up in the hide as in a sack- for Jove had made him captain over the winds, and he could stir or still each one of them according to his own pleasure. He put the sack in the ship and bound the mouth so tightly with a silver thread that not even a breath of a side-wind could blow from any quarter. The West wind which was fair for us did he alone let blow as it chose; but it all came to nothing, for we were lost through our own folly.

Nine days and nine nights did we sail, and on the tenth day our native land showed on the horizon. We got so close in that we could see the stubble fires burning, and I, being then dead beat, fell into a light sleep, for I had never let the rudder out of my own hands, that we might get home the faster. On this the men fell to talking among themselves, and said I was bringing back gold and silver in the sack that Aeolus had given me. 'Bless my heart,' would one turn to his neighbour, saying, 'how this man gets honoured and makes friends to whatever city or country he may go. See what fine prizes he is taking home from Troy, while we, who have travelled just as far as he has, come back with hands as empty as we set out with- and now Aeolus has given him ever so much more. Quick- let us see what it all is, and how much gold and silver there is in the sack he gave him.'

Thus they talked and evil counsels prevailed. They loosed the sack, whereupon the wind flew howling forth and raised a storm that carried us weeping out to sea and away from our own country. Then I awoke, and knew not whether to throw myself into the sea or to live on and make the best of it; but I bore it, covered myself up, and lay down in the ship, while the men lamented bitterly as the fierce winds bore our fleet back to the Aeolian island.

When we reached it we went ashore to take in water, and dined hard by the ships. Immediately after dinner I took a herald and one of my men and went straight to the house of Aeolus, where I found him feasting with his wife and family; so we sat down as suppliants on the threshold. They were astounded when they saw us and said, 'Ulysses, what brings you here? What god has been ill-treating you? We took great pains to further you on your way home to Ithaca, or wherever it was that you wanted to go to.'

Thus did they speak, but I answered sorrowfully, 'My men have undone me; they, and cruel sleep, have ruined me. My friends, mend me this mischief, for you can if you will.'

I spoke as movingly as I could, but they said nothing, till their father answered, 'Vilest of mankind, get you gone at once out of the island; him whom heaven hates will I in no wise help. Be off, for you come here as one abhorred of heaven. "And with these words he sent me sorrowing from his door.

Thence we sailed sadly on till the men were worn out with long and fruitless rowing, for there was no longer any wind to help them. Six days, night and day did we toil, and on the seventh day we reached the rocky stronghold of Lamus- Telepylus, the city of the Laestrygonians, where the shepherd who is driving in his sheep and goats [to be milked] salutes him who is driving out his flock [to feed] and this last answers the salute. In that country a man who could do without sleep might earn double wages, one as a herdsman of cattle, and another as a shepherd, for they work much the same by night as they do by day.

There is also a bit in Odyssey XIII:

As he spoke he crossed the threshold, and Alcinous sent a man to conduct him to his ship and to the sea shore. Arete also sent some maid servants with him- one with a clean shirt and cloak, another to carry his strong-box, and a third with corn and wine. When they got to the water side the crew took these things and put them on board, with all the meat and drink; but for Ulysses they spread a rug and a linen sheet on deck that he might sleep soundly in the stern of the ship. Then he too went on board and lay down without a word, but the crew took every man his place and loosed the hawser from the pierced stone to which it had been bound. Thereon, when they began rowing out to sea, Ulysses fell into a deep, sweet, and almost deathlike slumber.

The first scriptural passage is Jonah 1.1-17:

1 The word of the Lord came to Jonah the son of Amittai saying, 2 “Arise, go to Nineveh the great city and cry against it, for their wickedness has come up before Me.” 3 But Jonah rose up to flee to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord. So he went down to Joppa, found a ship which was going to Tarshish, paid the fare and went down into it to go with them to Tarshish from the presence of the Lord. 4 The Lord hurled a great wind on the sea and there was a great storm on the sea so that the ship was about to break up. 5 Then the sailors became afraid and every man cried to his god, and they threw the cargo which was in the ship into the sea to lighten it for them. But Jonah had gone below into the hold of the ship, lain down and fallen sound asleep. 6 So the captain approached him and said, “How is it that you are sleeping? Get up, call on your god. Perhaps your god will be concerned about us so that we will not perish.” 7 Each man said to his mate, “Come, let us cast lots so we may learn on whose account this calamity has struck us.” So they cast lots and the lot fell on Jonah. 8 Then they said to him, “Tell us, now! On whose account has this calamity struck us? What is your occupation? And where do you come from? What is your country? From what people are you?” 9 He said to them, “I am a Hebrew, and I fear the Lord God of heaven who made the sea and the dry land.” 10 Then the men became extremely frightened and they said to him, “How could you do this?” For the men knew that he was fleeing from the presence of the Lord, because he had told them. 11 So they said to him, “What should we do to you that the sea may become calm for us?”—for the sea was becoming increasingly stormy. 12 He said to them, “Pick me up and throw me into the sea. Then the sea will become calm for you, for I know that on account of me this great storm has come upon you.” 13 However, the men rowed desperately to return to land but they could not, for the sea was becoming even stormier against them. 14 Then they called on the Lord and said, “We earnestly pray, O Lord, do not let us perish on account of this man’s life and do not put innocent blood on us; for You, O Lord, have done as You have pleased.” 15 So they picked up Jonah, threw him into the sea, and the sea stopped its raging. 16 Then the men feared the Lord greatly, and they offered a sacrifice to the Lord and made vows. 17 And the Lord appointed a great fish to swallow Jonah, and Jonah was in the stomach of the fish three days and three nights.

The second scriptural passage is Psalm 107.23-32 (106.23-32 LXX):

23 Those who go down to the sea in ships,
Who do business on great waters;
24 They have seen the works of the Lord,
And His wonders in the deep.
25 For He spoke and raised up a stormy wind,
Which lifted up the waves of the sea.
26 They rose up to the heavens, they went down to the depths;
Their soul melted away in their misery.
27 They reeled and staggered like a drunken man,
And were at their wits’ end.
28 Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble,
And He brought them out of their distresses.
29 He caused the storm to be still,
So that the waves of the sea were hushed.
30 Then they were glad because they were quiet,
So He guided them to their desired haven.
31 Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness,
And for His wonders to the sons of men!
32 Let them extol Him also in the congregation of the people,
And praise Him at the seat of the elders.

There is also a bit in Psalm 104.6-7 (103.6-7 LXX):

6 The deep, as it were a garment, is his covering:
The waters shall stand on the hills.
7 At thy rebuke they shall flee;
At the voice of thy thunder they shall be alarmed.

Now, Neil tabulates the parallels between the Odyssey and the Marcan calming of the sea as follows:

Jesus (Mark 4.35-41)
Odysseus (Odyssey X)
1. Jesus finishes telling stories/parables from a boat.
2. Leaves late (evening).
3. A number of boats with him.
4. Fell asleep in boat.
5. In the stern of the boat, on a cushion.
6. Storm arose.
7. Disciples cried out in fear.
8. Jesus awoke.
9. Stilled storm.
10. Rebuked disciples for lack of faith.
11. Jesus was acknowledged as master of wind and sea.
1. Odysseus finishes telling stories on floating island of Aeolia.
2. Leaves late (after a month).
3. A number of boats with him.
4. Fell asleep in boat.
5. [In stern on rug in another sleeping episode, book XIII.]
6. Storm arose.
7. Crew cried out in fear.
8. Odysseus awoke.
9. Odysseus lost all hope.
10. Rebuked his crew for their foolishness.
11. Aeolus was acknowleged master of winds.

I will treat each of these parallels in turn.

1. Jesus finishes telling stories/parables from a boat and Odysseus finishes telling stories on the floating island of Aeolia.

Neither Jonah nor the Psalms seem to mention telling stories or parables on the water, so let us keep this as a possible sole parallel to the Odyssey for now, with the single proviso that, while Jesus is actually going out of his way to teach, Odysseus is really just answering Aeolus's questions.

2. Jesus leaves the shore in the evening and Odysseus leaves the floating island after a month.

Neither Jonah nor the Psalms seem to mention a timeframe for the voyage, so let us keep this one as a possible sole parallel to the Odyssey, as well.

3. Jesus and Odysseus each have a number of boats with him.

Odysseus has a fleet, and Mark 4.36 mentions other boats with the one that Jesus is in. However, Psalm 107.23 also has multiple boats.

4. Jesus and Odysseus each fall asleep in the boat.

They do, but so does Jonah. Furthermore, the word for "boat" in Homer is ναῦς ("ship"), whereas the word for "boat" in Jonah, in the Psalm, and in Mark is πλοῖον. Jonah and the Psalm are slightly closer here than Homer.

5. Jesus sleeps on a cushion in the stern and Odysseus sleeps on a rug in the stern.

This one, despite coming from a different book of the Odyssey than the other parallels, seems like a fairly striking Homeric parallel to me. Let us definitely keep this one in mind. Jonah is not said to be in the stern; he is in the hold. Meanwhile, both Mark and Homer have Jesus sleeping on something soft in the stern (πρύμνα).

6. A storm arises in both cases.

It does. However, the word for "wind" both in Mark and in Homer is ἄνεμος, whereas both in Jonah and in the Psalm it is πνεῦμα, so Homer is slightly closer here.

7. Jesus' disciples and Odysseus' crew each cry out in fear.

The Odyssey, Jonah, the Psalm, and Mark all use different words and phrases to convey the fear of those aboard the vessel. However, both Jonah 1.6 and Mark 4.38 have them speak of perishing (using a form of the verb ἀπόλλυμι). Jonah is closer here than Homer.

8. Jesus and Odysseus each awaken.

Odysseus apparently wakes up on his own; both Jonah and Jesus are awakened: Jonah by the captain of the ship and Jesus by his disciples. Jonah is closer here than Homer.

9. Jesus stills the storm and Odysseus loses hope.

Jesus does still the storm, and in Psalm 107.29 the storm "is calmed into a gentle breeze, and its waves are still." Furthermore, Mark 4.39 says that Jesus rebuked (ἐπετίμησεν) the wind, whereas Psalm 104.7 says, "At your rebuke [the waters] shall flee." Odysseus basically curls up into a ball and does nothing.

10. Jesus rebukes his disciples for lack of faith and Odysseus rebukes his crew for their folly.

Actually, I do not see where Odysseus rebukes his crew. He complains about them to Aeolus, "My men have undone me; they, and cruel sleep, have ruined me." But he does not address his crew specifically. Jesus, though, does openly rebuke his crew in Mark 4.40. I suppose a parallel may be salvaged inasmuch as both in Homer and in Mark the companions are a disappointment, whereas in Jonah it is Jonah himself who is the disappointment.

11. Jesus is acknowledged as master of wind and wave and Aeolus is acknowledged as master of the winds.

True, though of course now the parallel is no longer between Jesus and Odysseus, and Aeolus is acknowledged as such earlier in the narrative than Jesus is. Nevertheless, Yahweh is also acknowledged as master of wind and wave in Psalm 107.29-32. Furthermore, Jonah 1.16 and Mark 4.41 agree in the exact wording of the reaction to the miracle: "and they feared with great fear" (καὶ ἐφοβήθησαν φόβον μέγαν).

Time now to collect those parallels for which Homer seems to be at least as strong a candidate as Jonah or the Psalms, if not stronger. Obviously there is an element of subjectivity in this, but here we go:
  1. Jesus finishes telling stories/parables from a boat and Odysseus finishes telling stories on the floating island of Aeolia.
  2. Jesus leaves the shore in the evening and Odysseus leaves the floating island after a month.
  3. Jesus sleeps on a cushion in the stern and Odysseus sleeps on a rug in the stern.
  4. The word for "wind" both in Mark and in Homer is ἄνεμος, whereas both in Jonah and in the Psalm it is πνεῦμα.
  5. Both in Homer and in Mark the companions are a disappointment, whereas in Jonah it is Jonah himself who is the disappointment.
For my money, numbers 1 and 2 are secondary at best, if not gossamer. By "secondary" I mean that, by themselves, no one would have come looking for parallels to Mark in this part of Homer. A "primary" parallel, on the other hand, would be one that forms a main reason for looking further (Psalm 107.29 would be a primary parallel, as would Jonah 1.16).

Number 3 looks quite strong. If it should turn out that sleeping on something soft in the stern is a motif somewhat common to ancient tales of troubled sea voyages, then I will adjust my evaluation accordingly. But for now it looks pretty striking.

Number 4 is real enough (though clearly still a secondary parallel according to my definition above), but involves a simple choice between two synonyms. Papyrus Oxyrhynchus 1383 is a sailor's poem from late century III which uses both words (Grenfell & Hunt, tome 11, page 237): "I commanded the Rhodian winds [Ῥοδίοις ἐκέλευον ἀνέμοις] and the seaward parts when I wished to sail; when I wished to remain there, I said to the seaward parts that the sea should not be smitten. Make the ocean obedient to seafarers ! Suddenly a whole tempest [ἄνεμος] arises. Shut off the winds [τὰ πνεύματα], and, night, grant that the waters be smooth. [Title:] To the Rhodian winds."

Number 5 seems to involve more than just this pericope; Odysseus' companions tend to act like fools throughout the Odyssey and Jesus' disciples tend to lack faith throughout Mark. I am not certain, however, that Odysseus' companions have to be the model for Jesus' disciples, and in this pericope the actual parallel is quite slender, amounting to no more than that both sets of companions/disciples are deficient in some way. A stronger parallel could actually be drawn between the Odyssey and Jonah, since in both cases human weakness is to blame for the storm itself, whereas in the Psalm it is Yahweh who summons the storm and in Mark it is just a storm, nothing more.

MacDonald argues that Homer explains the otherwise unexplained presence of other boats in Mark 4.36, but I think that Psalm 107.23 completely defuses this. Once that parallel is removed, it is a bit ironic that the one which to my mind appears the strongest between Homer and Mark (sleeping on something soft in the stern) does not appear in the same chapter of the Odyssey as the rest of the purported parallels.

So my thoughts on the composition of this passage are as follows....

I do not think that Jesus' boat is supposed to line up with Aeolus' floating island, nor that leaving at evening is supposed to reflect in any way leaving after a month. I think that the choice of the word ἄνεμος is cosmetic, possibly a result of hearing that particular word more often in such literary contexts involving storms at sea, including but by no means limited to those in Homer. The choice of πλοῖον over ναῦς, on the other hand, is probably a result of the overwhelming preference of the LXX for the former word over the latter. The folly of Odysseus' companions and the faithlessness of Jesus' disciples probably merit further investigation, but not in particular connection with this pericope.

On the other hand, Jesus sleeping on a pillow in the stern may well be a detail taken from Homer. Such an image would be pretty memorable. (Alternatively, such a detail may be a reminiscence of Jesus actually sleeping on occasion in the disciples' boats. This is not my preferred option, but it is a possibility.)

But I do not think that even this Homeric detail, though possibly primary (in the sense above), is constitutive of the Marcan account; that is, I do not think that Mark (or anybody) read this detail in Homer and on that basis decided to craft a narrative about Jesus. Rather, once that decision was made, this was the sort of welcome detail that might come to mind while fleshing out the narrative.

The constitutive texts are Jonah 1.1-17 and Psalm 107.23-32 (106.23-32 LXX). The entire Marcan account is inundated with language and concepts from the former, and the latter's verse 29 comes off as the perfect way to summarize the miracle as a whole; the Psalm also fits into the marked tendency in the NT to take actions and reactions attributed to Yahweh in the OT and attribute them to Jesus.

Psalm 104.6-7 (103.6-7 LXX) may have inspired the wording of Mark 4.39, but this proposition is not necessary.

The mention of boats in Mark 4.36 is not a coded way to reveal sources; it is more than a mere authorial wink and nudge. Rather, it serves the same basic purpose as the multiple boats in Psalm 107.23, making sailors in general dependent upon the Lord's good graces; this is a communal miracle, and more lives are saved at sea that day than just those of the disciples... unlike the later walking upon the water, a miracle vouchsafed to the disciples alone.

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
arnoldo
Posts: 969
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 6:10 pm
Location: Latin America

Re: The calming of the sea.

Post by arnoldo »

You know, if you listen to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and watch The Wizard of Oz in the right state of mind amazing parallels appear.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_Side_of_the_Rainbow

In regard to greek myths the following writer has this to say.
ST. JUSTIN MARTYR
THE DISCOURSE TO THE GREEKS

CHAPTER I.--JUSTIN JUSTIFIES HIS DEPARTURE FROM GREEK CUSTOMS.

Do not suppose, ye Greeks, that my separation from your customs is unreasonable and unthinking; for I found in them nothing that is holy or acceptable to God. For the very compositions of your poets are monuments of madness and intemperance. For any one who becomes the scholar of your most eminent instructor, is more beset by difficulties than all men besides. For first they say that Agamemnon, abetting the extravagant lust of his brother, and his madness and unrestrained desire, readily gave even his daughter to be sacrificed, and troubled all Greece that he might rescue Helen, who had been ravished by the leprous shepherd. But when in the course of the war they took captives, Agamemnon was himself taken captive by Chryseis, and for Briseis' sake kindled a feud with the son of Thetis. And Pelides himself, who crossed the river, overthrew Troy, and subdued Hector, this your hero became the slave of Polyxena, and was conquered by a dead Amazon; and putting off the god-fabricated armour, and donning the hymeneal robe, he became a sacrifice of love in the temple of Apollo. And the Ithacan Ulysses made a virtue of a vice. And indeed his sailing past the Sirens gave evidence that he was destitute of worthy prudence, because he could not depend on his prudence for stopping his ears. Ajax, son of Telamon, who bore the shield of sevenfold ox-hide, went mad when he was defeated in the contest with Ulysses for the amour. Such things I have no desire to be instructed in. Of such virtue I am not covetous, that I should believe the myths of Homer. For the whole rhapsody, the beginning and end both of the Iliad and the Odyssey is--a woman.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... ourse.html
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: The calming of the sea.

Post by neilgodfrey »

arnoldo wrote:You know, if you listen to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and watch The Wizard of Oz in the right state of mind amazing parallels appear.
How about actually getting back to Samuel Sandmel's article on Parallelomania to know exactly what the problem is. So many people facilely poo-pooh literary parallels in a manner quite contrary to the problem raised by Sandmel and that demonstrate an utter lack of awareness of comparative literary studies generally.

The difference is stark -- and the facile objections when it comes to the Gospels and their contemporary literature are logically fallacious and ignorant.

Parallelomania/parallels has become something quite different from what Sandmel meant by it and it has in fact become the equivalent of a four letter word lazily and ignorantly dished out when actual knowledge and argument is apparently considered too bothersome.
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: The calming of the sea.

Post by neilgodfrey »

vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
User avatar
neilgodfrey
Posts: 6161
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 4:08 pm

Re: The calming of the sea.

Post by neilgodfrey »

From Sandmel's article:
The key word in my essay is extravagance. I am not denying that literary parallels and literary influence, in the form of source and derivation, exist. I am not seeking to discourage the study of these parallels, but, especially in the case of the Qumran documents, to encourage them. However, I am speaking words of caution about exaggerations about the parallels and about source and derivation. I shall not exhaust what might be said in all the areas which members of this Society might be interested in, but confine myself to the areas of rabbinic literature and the gospels, Philo and Paul, and the Dead Sea Scrolls and the NT.

That is to say, my paper is a series of comments primarily in the general area of the literatures relevant to early rabbinic Judaism and early Christianity.
Sandmel makes a special objection to paralleling rabbinic(!) literature to Paul's writings. The links between the literature are assumed without evidence of any linkage between Paul's time and the rabbinical writings.

Literary parallels are based on a comparison with literature almost certainly known to the authors and known to be influential across literatures. That is quite different from the extravagance of which Sandmel spoke.

Look at the scholarly apparatus in almost any Greek gospel text and you will see hundreds of potential parallels, allusions, direct quotations, indirect influences.... all from the OT writings to the NT ones and also between some Classical ones and NT ones.

Sandmel was not promoting the word "parallelomania" to protest against this apparatus or the thousands of studies making similar links.
vridar.org Musings on biblical studies, politics, religion, ethics, human nature, tidbits from science
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: The calming of the sea.

Post by Bernard Muller »

There is a page on Parallelomania on Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallelomania
In it, I read:
Sandmel stated that the simple observations of similarity between historical events are often less than valid, but at times lead to a phenomenon where an author first notices a supposed similarity, overdoses on analogy, and then "proceeds to describe source and derivation as if implying a literary connection flowing in an inevitable or predetermined direction".
Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The calming of the sea.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote:There is a page on Parallelomania on Wiki:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallelomania
In it, I read:
Sandmel stated that the simple observations of similarity between historical events are often less than valid, but at times lead to a phenomenon where an author first notices a supposed similarity, overdoses on analogy, and then "proceeds to describe source and derivation as if implying a literary connection flowing in an inevitable or predetermined direction".
I read that article years ago and substantially agreed with it, and I just now read it again on JSTOR; I find myself substantially in agreement with it once again, and I see nothing in it that comes close to criticizing something like Marcan knowledge and use of Psalm 107 and Jonah 1 in his pericope on the calming of the sea.

If, based on that article, you have specific criticisms to level against those connections, Bernard, I suggest you list them here so we can all see what you are talking about.

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The calming of the sea.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Subject: The feeding of the 5000.
Bernard Muller wrote:But where are the other boats during the squall? Nowhere to be seen: that's was my point.
Did "Mark" mention the other boats when Jesus departs by boat to other shores to be part of his pericope about 'calming the sea'? I see no evidence for that.
neilgodfrey wrote:
arnoldo wrote:You know, if you listen to Pink Floyd's Dark Side of the Moon and watch The Wizard of Oz in the right state of mind amazing parallels appear.
How about actually getting back to Samuel Sandmel's article on Parallelomania to know exactly what the problem is. So many people facilely poo-pooh literary parallels in a manner quite contrary to the problem raised by Sandmel and that demonstrate an utter lack of awareness of comparative literary studies generally.
It is parallelophobia running wild, Neil.

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Bernard Muller
Posts: 3964
Joined: Tue Oct 15, 2013 6:02 pm
Contact:

Re: The calming of the sea.

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
I read that article years ago and substantially agreed with it, and I just now read it again on JSTOR; I find myself substantially in agreement with it once again, and I see nothing in it that comes close to criticizing something like Marcan knowledge and use of Psalm 107 and Jonah 1 in his pericope on the calming of the sea.

If, based on that article, you have specific criticisms to level against those connections, Bernard, I suggest you list them here so we can all see what you are talking about.
I already specified my criticism.
May I ask you, according to your thinking:
- what are the odds that "Mark" made significant use of Psalm 107 in the pericope of calming the sea?
- If the odds are more than 0, then what are the significant items than "Mark" would have used from this Psalm?

Cordially, Bernard
I believe freedom of expression should not be curtailed
User avatar
Ben C. Smith
Posts: 8994
Joined: Wed Apr 08, 2015 2:18 pm
Location: USA
Contact:

Re: The calming of the sea.

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
I read that article years ago and substantially agreed with it, and I just now read it again on JSTOR; I find myself substantially in agreement with it once again, and I see nothing in it that comes close to criticizing something like Marcan knowledge and use of Psalm 107 and Jonah 1 in his pericope on the calming of the sea.

If, based on that article, you have specific criticisms to level against those connections, Bernard, I suggest you list them here so we can all see what you are talking about.
I already specified my criticism.
Not based on the article you quoted, however.
May I ask you, according to your thinking:
- what are the odds that "Mark" made significant use of Psalm 107 in the pericope of calming the sea?
In my estimation the odds are very high that Mark (or somebody) knew and used Psalm 107 in this pericope. In fact, even if it were to turn out that Jesus Christ was/is really the son of God and really worked this miracle, then the odds are very high that he was thinking of this Psalm as he did so.
- If the odds are more than 0, then what are the significant items than "Mark" would have used from this Psalm?
The main item is 107.29: "He caused the storm to be still, so that the waves of the sea were hushed." For my money, that is the source of the miracle itself: finding a way to make Jesus do what Yahweh does in this passage.

Another key item, albeit one that overlaps somewhat with Jonah, is 107.26-28: "They rose up to the heavens, they went down to the depths; their soul melted away in their misery. They reeled and staggered like a drunken man, and were at their wits’ end. Then they cried to the Lord in their trouble, and He brought them out of their distresses."

The final item is the plurality of ships in 107.23, the purpose for which I explained in the OP.

Ben.
ΤΙ ΕΣΤΙΝ ΑΛΗΘΕΙΑ
Post Reply