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The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:16 am

.
Theories of our Bernard are currently hot topics. Personally, I was always very interested in his thesis that Q was a late development of Mark and complementing and correcting Mark's gospel. I agree with many of his observations about the relationship between material of Mark and the double tradition.
Bernard wrote:

This page is about demonstrating that the Q source, as (a) document(s), was put together after GMark was known and before GMatthew & GLuke were written. I start by showing "Q" dependance on GMark

I think that the thesis of Q-stories or Mt-stories or L-stories as commentaries about Mark deserves an own thread. Of course, these theories can not be proven. It is only possible to present it as likely or plausibly.

I'm curious, how many and which stories can be presented as further developments of Mark.
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Re: The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Thu Mar 31, 2016 6:23 am

.
The making of Luke 19:1-10 “Zacchaeus and the sycamore fig in Jericho”

1) Luke reads Mark 11:12-14 (Cursing the fig tree)
Mark 11:13 And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.

This story is placed in GMark after the story of the royal entry.

2) Luke is wondering what Mark might mean

Luke's possible question: What did Jesus seek on the fig tree (Greek: Syke) in the springtime?
Luke's possible answer: Maybe the so called „early figs“.

3) Luke knows that Mark loved OT-allusions

Luke finds in the Septuagint two verses with the so called „early figs“, one of them is Hosea 9:10
I found Israel as grapes in the wilderness, and I saw their fathers as an early watchman in a fig-tree:
῾Ως σταφυλὴν ἐν ἐρήμῳ εὗρον τὸν ᾿Ισραὴλ καὶ ὡς σκοπὸν ἐν συκῇ πρώϊμον πατέρας αὐτῶν εἶδον

Luke notes that Hosea 9:10 used a metaphor for the early fig: σκοπὸν πρώϊμον (early watchman)

4) Luke presents a story about such an early watchman: Zacchaeus

This story is placed in GLuke shortly before the story of the royal entry. Zacchaeus climbed up a sycamore fig tree (Greek: Sykomorea). The significant point of the story is that Jesus found Zacchaeus on the sycamore fig. Therefore Jesus honored Zacchaeus.

Luke 19:1-10
1 He entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector and was rich. 3 And he was seeking to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was small in stature. 4 So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was about to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, “He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” 8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”
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Re: The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby Ben C. Smith » Thu Mar 31, 2016 7:22 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
The making of Luke 19:1-10 “Zacchaeus and the sycamore fig in Jericho”

1) Luke reads Mark 11:12-14 (Cursing the fig tree)
Mark 11:13 And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.

This story is placed in GMark after the story of the royal entry.

2) Luke is wondering what Mark might mean

Luke's possible question: What did Jesus seek on the fig tree (Greek: Syke) in the springtime?
Luke's possible answer: Maybe the so called „early figs“.

3) Luke knows that Mark loved OT-allusions

Luke finds in the Septuagint two verses with the so called „early figs“, one of them is Hosea 9:10
I found Israel as grapes in the wilderness, and I saw their fathers as an early watchman in a fig-tree:
῾Ως σταφυλὴν ἐν ἐρήμῳ εὗρον τὸν ᾿Ισραὴλ καὶ ὡς σκοπὸν ἐν συκῇ πρώϊμον πατέρας αὐτῶν εἶδον

Luke notes that Hosea 9:10 used a metaphor for the early fig: σκοπὸν πρώϊμον (early watchman)

4) Luke presents a story about such an early watchman: Zacchaeus

This story is placed in GLuke shortly before the story of the royal entry. Zacchaeus climbed up a sycamore fig tree (Greek: Sykomorea). The significant point of the story is that Jesus found Zacchaeus on the sycamore fig. Therefore Jesus honored Zacchaeus.

Luke 19:1-10
1 He entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector and was rich. 3 And he was seeking to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was small in stature. 4 So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was about to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, “He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” 8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”


That is brilliant. When the time comes to choose up sides for the great Find-the-Scriptural-Allusion Competition, I want you on my team.

I wonder, Kunigunde, what you make of Luke 13.6-9? Did Luke react twice to the cursing of the fig tree, once as a parable and then again as a story about a tax collector? (I have often wondered whether the parable might have come first, only later being turned into an event in the life of Jesus.)

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Re: The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby Ben C. Smith » Thu Mar 31, 2016 9:47 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:I wonder, Kunigunde, what you make of Luke 13.6-9? Did Luke react twice to the cursing of the fig tree, once as a parable and then again as a story about a tax collector? (I have often wondered whether the parable might have come first, only later being turned into an event in the life of Jesus.)


Of possible interest here is that the Marcionite version of Luke seems to have contained the story of Zacchaeus but lacked the parable of the fig tree.
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Re: The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby Secret Alias » Thu Mar 31, 2016 11:56 am

And for my friends who have never managed to expand their minds through chemistry - don't forget that Clement knows of a gospel that identifies Matthew in place of Zacchaeus. https://books.google.com/books?id=ruUZA ... nt&f=false I have always thought this is key to understanding where the gospel of 'Matthew' originated. But who knows. But this nonsense about limiting discussion to three late gospels is as ever annoying - like watching children themselves by little hammers.
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Re: The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:58 am

Secret Alias wrote:But this nonsense about limiting discussion to three late gospels is as ever annoying - like watching children themselves by little hammers.

Woe unto me for I forgot the most important theme.

All are free to take "Luke" as a placeholder for "Luke", "Proto-Luke", "Marcion" or "author of the L-source" or ... or ... or whatever you wish
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Re: The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby Ulan » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:22 am

That's very interesting. So gMark is the puzzle version of the gospel, and gLuke (etc.) is in next week's paper with full solution.
Unfortunately, the normal editor was inconvenienced, so we only get half of that, but better than nothing, right?
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Re: The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby Kunigunde Kreuzerin » Fri Apr 01, 2016 3:47 am

Ben C. Smith wrote:When the time comes to choose up sides for the great Find-the-Scriptural-Allusion Competition, I want you on my team.

Thanks :)

Ben C. Smith wrote:I wonder, Kunigunde, what you make of Luke 13.6-9? Did Luke react twice to the cursing of the fig tree, once as a parable and then again as a story about a tax collector?

I would count Luke 17:6 as a third reaction (removing Mark's „this mountain“ and including the „mulberry fig“ - Maybe because many mountains in GMark are related to the disciples?)

Ben C. Smith wrote:I have often wondered whether the parable might have come first, only later being turned into an event in the life of Jesus.

Because of my POV I should not decide the question. ;) But I think that the main argument “simple stories are earlier stories” is not justified, not for the NT and not for Early Christianity.

My impression is that Matthew often simplified a Markan pericope by removing irritating and inappropriate details and riddles, dissolving sentences with many participles or pericopes with intercalations. Also the use of metaphors in Matthew seems to me often more transparent and easier to understand than in Mark.

Finally, I think that authors of later gospels such the Infancy Gospel of James or Acts of Pilate – let's say - „are not worthy to stoop down and untie the sandals“ of Mark and John :cheers:
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Re: The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby Ben C. Smith » Fri Apr 01, 2016 5:52 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:I would count Luke 17:6 as a third reaction (removing Mark's „this mountain“ and including the „mulberry fig“ - Maybe because many mountains in GMark are related to the disciples?)


Good one. Yes, the mulberry saying is clearly related.

Ben C. Smith wrote:I have often wondered whether the parable might have come first, only later being turned into an event in the life of Jesus.

Because of my POV I should not decide the question.


Can you elaborate on that? What point of view do you hold that (somehow) disqualifies you from deciding the question? I am not sure what you are saying here.

But I think that the main argument “simple stories are earlier stories” is not justified, not for the NT and not for Early Christianity.


I agree. In fact, I think that truly unidirectional arguments that work to determine the trajectory of these materials are pretty rare.

My grounds for wondering in this case (and it is no more than that: "wondering") are: (A) I think evidence can be produced that things spoken by the scriptures, by Jewish thinkers, and by Christian prophets and teachers were sometimes put onto the lips of Jesus; and (B) I think evidence can be produced that utterances were sometimes turned into events in the life of Jesus. If so, then that at least presses the question: which came first? And that makes me wonder. :)

My impression is that Matthew often simplified a Markan pericope by removing irritating and inappropriate details and riddles, dissolving sentences with many participles or pericopes with intercalations. Also the use of metaphors in Matthew seems to me often more transparent and easier to understand than in Mark.


I agree in general. Some of this is discussed in The Tendencies of the Synoptic Tradition, by E. P. Sanders.

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Re: The making of Mt/L/Q-stories from Mark

Postby MrMacSon » Fri Apr 01, 2016 11:11 am

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote:.
The making of Luke 19:1-10 “Zacchaeus and the sycamore fig in Jericho”

1) Luke reads Mark 11:12-14 (Cursing the fig tree)
Mark 11:13 And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it, he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs.

This story is placed in GMark after the story of the royal entry.


2) Luke is wondering what Mark might mean

Luke's possible question: What did Jesus seek on the fig tree (Greek: Syke) in the springtime?
Luke's possible answer: Maybe the so called „early figs“.

3) Luke knows that Mark loved OT-allusions

Luke finds in the Septuagint two verses with the so called „early figs“, one of them is Hosea 9:10
I found Israel as grapes in the wilderness, and I saw their fathers as an early watchman in a fig-tree:
῾Ως σταφυλὴν ἐν ἐρήμῳ εὗρον τὸν ᾿Ισραὴλ καὶ ὡς σκοπὸν ἐν συκῇ πρώϊμον πατέρας αὐτῶν εἶδον

Luke notes that Hosea 9:10 used a metaphor for the early fig: σκοπὸν πρώϊμον (early watchman)

4) Luke presents a story about such an early watchman: Zacchaeus

This story is placed in GLuke shortly before the story of the royal entry. Zacchaeus climbed up a sycamore fig tree (Greek: Sykomorea). The significant point of the story is that Jesus found Zacchaeus on the sycamore fig. Therefore Jesus honored Zacchaeus.

Luke 19:1-10
1 He entered Jericho and was passing through. 2 And behold, there was a man named Zacchaeus. He was a chief tax collector and was rich. 3 And he was seeking to see who Jesus was, but on account of the crowd he could not, because he was small in stature. 4 So he ran on ahead and climbed up into a sycamore tree to see him, for he was about to pass that way. 5 And when Jesus came to the place, he looked up and said to him, “Zacchaeus, hurry and come down, for I must stay at your house today.” 6 So he hurried and came down and received him joyfully. 7 And when they saw it, they all grumbled, “He has gone in to be the guest of a man who is a sinner.” 8 And Zacchaeus stood and said to the Lord, “Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor. And if I have defrauded anyone of anything, I restore it fourfold.” 9 And Jesus said to him, “Today salvation has come to this house, since he also is a son of Abraham. 10 For the Son of Man came to seek and to save the lost.”

I have been interested in the word 'natsar/na·ṣar' - נָצַר - and it's variations 'netser', n.ts.r, etc., and their relationships to Nazarite (through nazir) and Nazareth, Nazarene, and their variations.

I have seen references to 'natsar/na·ṣar' - נָצַר - meaning "to watch" (whereas 'netser' is said to mean "branch");

    hence 'Natsarith' is said to mean watchtower, and 'Natsarim' are 'watchmen'

I came across this a few month ago -

Some ...think that the name of the city [of 'Nazareth'] must be connected with the name of the hill behind it, from which one of the finest prospects in Israel is obtained, and accordingly they derive it from the Hebrew notserah, ie., one guarding or watching, thus designating the hill which overlooks and thus guards an extensive region.

http://www.christiananswers.net/diction ... areth.html

and this
There is also a view there is a passive meaning of 'preserved, protected' in reference to its secluded position -

RH Mounce, "Nazareth", in Geoffrey W Bromiley (ed) The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol 3: Eerdmans, 1986; pp 500–1
Last edited by MrMacSon on Fri Apr 01, 2016 2:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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