The last Passover (for Bernard)?

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Ben C. Smith
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The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Hi, Bernard. You have requested feedback on your site before, so here is some.

On your HJ-3a page you write:

In the 1Corinthians letter, the "Last Supper" is not mentioned as the Passover meal. But the Passover setting might have been inadvertently inspired by Paul:
1Co5:6-8 "Your boasting is not good. Don't you know that a little yeast works through the whole batch of dough? Get rid of the old yeast that you may be a new batch without yeast--as you really are [if there was no boasting!]. For Christ, our Passover, has been sacrificed. Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old yeast, the yeast of malice and wickedness, but with bread without yeast, the bread of sincerity and truth."

Paul's imagery relates to the Passover (one particular day) and the overlapping Festival of the unleavened bread (14 days), when bread without yeast (a symbol of purity "sincerity and truth") is eaten, instead of the leavened bread (symbol of impurity "malice and wickedness"). Naturally, Christ's sacrifice is associated with Passover (the day in the year) as a turning point: before, "malice and wickedness"; then and after "sincerity and truth".

Now, I agree that Paul so clearly calling Christ "our Passover" and relating his death to the Feast of Unleavened Bread might certainly be enough to inspire later Christians to assign Jesus' death to the time of Passover. However, there may be more to the Passover connection than this. The very words of institution in 1 Corinthians 11.24: τοῦτο ποιεῖτε εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν ("do this in my memory"), seem to many to be inspired by the focus on memory during Passover season, as directed in Exodus 12.14: καὶ ἔσται ἡ ἡμέρα ὑμῖν αὕτη μνημόσυνον ("and this day shall be a memorial for you").

And this match-up may tip the scales for me; it rather looks as though Paul himself (assuming for the sake of argument that the passage is not an interpolation) is thinking of the eucharistic meal as some kind of Passover meal. That is, the connection between Jesus' death and the Passover may be more than metaphorical for Paul; he may think of Jesus himself having inaugurated the eucharist specifically with the Passover in mind.

Do you see a connection between τοῦτο ποιεῖτε εἰς τὴν ἐμὴν ἀνάμνησιν and καὶ ἔσται ἡ ἡμέρα ὑμῖν αὕτη μνημόσυνον? Or do you think that is parallelomania running rampant again?

Ben.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
I think that is parallelomania running rampant again (but the connection of "calming the sea" with Psalm 107 is troubling me).
About "remembrance", what do you think of Heb 10:3?
I think Paul got that word from it (with same context of sacrifice(s) and atonement of sins).

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
I think that is parallelomania running rampant again (but the connection of "calming the sea" with Psalm 107 is troubling me).
About "remembrance", what do you think of Heb 10:3?
I think Paul got that word from it (with same context of sacrifice(s) and atonement of sins).
Hebrews 10.3: "But in those sacrifices there is a reminder [ἀνάμνησις] of sins year by year."

You think that is related to the Pauline eucharistic words, even though the meaning is pretty much opposite what we find in Paul? In Paul it is a remembrance of Christ (a good thing). In Hebrews it is remembrance of sins (a bad thing).

The interchange between the Passover memorial and the eucharistic words, on the other hand, is clear: in the old way, you remembered how you were saved out of slavery; in the new way, you remember how you have been saved by Christ. Both are good things, and both are parallel in much Christian thought (Christ being considered to replace or fulfill Jewish scriptural precedents all over the place).

Ben.
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Bernard Muller
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Re: The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
Hebrews 10.3: "But in those sacrifices there is a reminder [ἀνάμνησις] of sins year by year."

You think that is related to the Pauline eucharistic words, even though the meaning is pretty much opposite what we find in Paul? In Paul it is a remembrance of Christ (a good thing). In Hebrews it is remembrance of sins (a bad thing).
In Hebrews 10:3, the sacrifices are done over and over again because these sacrifices (of animal) do not eradicate sins forever. That means those sacrifices are a reminder that they are ineffective in the long run.
But Jesus' sacrifice, once for all, is providing atonement of sins forever. So "sins" is somewhat connected to the idea of atonement of sins.
Anyway, that does not matter much, because Paul used the word "remembrance" (twice) only in his revelation of the last supper as allegedly said by Jesus, and this word is in only Hebrews, among all the epistles, which I am rather certain Paul knew about (as for many other items) (http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html & http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html).
BTW, that word is not in Exodus LXX 12:14.
Frankly I do not care from where and if Paul was inspired by any text here: Paul invented the whole of Jesus' last supper.
The interchange between the Passover memorial and the eucharistic words, on the other hand, is clear: in the old way, you remembered how you were saved out of slavery; in the new way, you remember how you have been saved by Christ. Both are good things, and both are parallel in much Christian thought (Christ being considered to replace or fulfill Jewish scriptural precedents all over the place).
That's too bad that Paul did not mention that interpretation from Ex 12:14. But that interpretation would fit your agenda: go for it!

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by MrMacSon »

On http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3.html you have - regarding the execution of John -
John's followers must have been devastated. Some might have despaired and lost interest. But others probably felt the event in Cesarea and the appearance of John were part of a God's plan which had to be fulfilled. And the tremendous expectations raised by John's message and stature -

(Lk3:15 "Now as the people were in expectation, and all reasoned in their hearts about John, whether he was the Christ ["a king" (23:2), "Chosen One" (23:35)] or not,")
You have conflated reference to John potentially being the Christ with references to Jesus as being the King or Chosen One which seems a little spurious as John had heralded a greater one to follow him, and we know that Jesus has fulfilled that mantle.
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Re: The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
Hebrews 10.3: "But in those sacrifices there is a reminder [ἀνάμνησις] of sins year by year."

You think that is related to the Pauline eucharistic words, even though the meaning is pretty much opposite what we find in Paul? In Paul it is a remembrance of Christ (a good thing). In Hebrews it is remembrance of sins (a bad thing).
In Hebrews 10:3, the sacrifices are done over and over again because these sacrifices (of animal) do not eradicate sins forever. That means those sacrifices are a reminder that they are ineffective in the long run.
But Jesus' sacrifice, once for all, is providing atonement of sins forever. So "sins" is somewhat connected to the idea of atonement of sins.
Anyway, that does not matter much, because Paul used the word "remembrance" (twice) only in his revelation of the last supper as allegedly said by Jesus, and this word is in only Hebrews, among all the epistles, which I am rather certain Paul knew about (as for many other items) (http://historical-jesus.info/hjes3x.html & http://historical-jesus.info/appp.html).
BTW, that word is not in Exodus LXX 12:14.
No, but its cognate is: μνημόσυνον.
Frankly I do not care from where and if Paul was inspired by any text here....
Okay....
The interchange between the Passover memorial and the eucharistic words, on the other hand, is clear: in the old way, you remembered how you were saved out of slavery; in the new way, you remember how you have been saved by Christ. Both are good things, and both are parallel in much Christian thought (Christ being considered to replace or fulfill Jewish scriptural precedents all over the place).
That's too bad that Paul did not mention that interpretation from Ex 12:14. But that interpretation would fit your agenda: go for it!
What agenda are you referring to?

Ben.
Last edited by Ben C. Smith on Fri Apr 01, 2016 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ulan
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Re: The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by Ulan »

Completely off-topic:

I have to chuckle when I read the thread title.
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Re: The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
No, but its cognate is: μνημόσυνον.
Cognate of ἀνάμνησιν? the two words spelling look very different, even if they have a similar meaning.

Cordially, Bernard
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Re: The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to MrMacSon,
You have conflated reference to John potentially being the Christ with references to Jesus as being the King or Chosen One which seems a little spurious as John had heralded a greater one to follow him, and we know that Jesus has fulfilled that mantle.
Well, I do not know what you believe, but certainly I do not think John heralded a greater one to follow him, or we have to believe (but I don't) the gospels about Jesus being greater than John. There are plenty of evidence in gMark, other gospels, Q, the Pauline epistles, Josephus' works that Jesus was way inferior to John in popularity during their "ministry" and even many years afterwards.
All I can see from your remark is you did not read my website from the beginning where I explained most of the above.

Cordially, Bernard
Last edited by Bernard Muller on Sat Apr 02, 2016 7:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The last Passover (for Bernard)?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote:to Ben,
No, but its cognate is: μνημόσυνον.
Cognate of ἀνάμνησιν? the two words spelling look very different, even if they have a similar meaning.
Yes. You have to break the word down into its morphemes. Remove the ἀνά, first off, since it is an obvious prefix. These two words belong to a tissue of etymologically related Greek words to do with memory (I have underlined the connecting words):

μιμνήσκω a prolonged form of μνάομαι (from which some of the tenses are borrowed); to remind, i.e. (middle voice) to recall to mind: be mindful, remember.
μνήμη from μιμνήσκω; memory: remembrance.
μνημεῖον from μνήμη; a remembrance, i.e. cenotaph (place of interment): grave, sepulchre, tomb.
μνημονεύω from a derivative of μνήμη; to exercise memory, i.e. recollect; by implication, to punish; also to rehearse: make mention; be mindful, remember.
μνημόσυνον from μνημονεύω; a reminder (memorandum), i.e. record: memorial.
ἀναμιμνήσκω from ἀνά and μιμνήσκω; to remind; (reflexively) to recollect: call to mind, (bring to, call to, put in), remember(-brance).
ἀνάμνησις from ἀναμιμνήσκω; recollection: remembrance (again).
ἐπαναμιμνήσκω from ἐπί and ἀναμιμνήσκω; to remind of: put in mind.
ὑπομιμνήσκω from ὑπό and μιμνήσκω; to remind quietly, i.e. suggest to the (middle voice, one's own) memory: put in mind, remember, bring to (put in) remembrance.
ὑπόμνησις from ὑπομιμνήσκω; a reminding or (reflexively) recollection: remembrance.

To summarize:

μιμνήσκω > ἀναμιμνήσκω > ἀνάμνησις
μιμνήσκω > μνήμη > μνημονεύω > μνημόσυνον

All part of the same family. Hence the similar meanings.

Ben.
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