Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by Secret Alias »

Here are the facts as I see them.

1. In earliest Christian antiquity Paul was understood to have ascended to the 'third heaven' and then Paradise which Church Fathers insinuate was in the 'eighth' heaven (i.e. above the seventh)
2. there was a gospel called for some reason 'the Diatessaron'

I don't think that a gospel made up of four gospels (as 'Diatessaron' is commonly interpreted) would be called 'the Diatessaron.' I have always thought it had something to do with musical theory (where the terminology originates).

Curiously if we imagine Paul standing at ground zero ('C' in musical terms), D would be the 'first heaven' and E would be the 'second heaven.' That means F was the 'third heaven.' G = fourth, A = fifth, B = sixth heaven, C = seventh heaven. In essence then C was both the seventh heaven and an octave which spanned earth to the highest heaven.

But Paul's journey from 'earth' or C to 'third heaven' or F and finally Paradise in the seventh and highest heaven has musical theoretical implications. The journey from C to F was a 'Diatessaron'
In classical music from Western culture, a fourth is a musical interval encompassing four staff positions (see Interval number for more details), and the perfect fourth (About this sound Play (help·info)) is a fourth spanning five semitones (half steps, or half tones). For example, the ascending interval from C to the next F is a perfect fourth, as the note F lies five semitones above C, and there are four staff positions from C to F. Diminished and augmented fourths span the same number of staff positions, but consist of a different number of semitones (four and six).

The perfect fourth may be derived from the harmonic series as the interval between the third and fourth harmonics. The term perfect identifies this interval as belonging to the group of perfect intervals, so called because they are neither major nor minor (unlike thirds, which are either minor or major) but perfect.

Up until the late 19th century, the perfect fourth was often called by its Greek name, diatessaron.[1] Its most common occurrence is between the fifth and upper root of all major and minor triads and their extensions.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
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outhouse
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Re: Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote:1. In earliest Christian antiquity Paul was understood to have ascended to the 'third heaven'

No, let me correct this.


In earliest Christian antiquity Paul was understood to have had a dream/vision about ascending to the 'third heaven' by his own words.


It was not a physical ascension
Secret Alias
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Re: Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by Secret Alias »

It is difficult to go further with this discussion. You recognize that Platonists see the soul as being 'the real you.' The body is its prison, right?
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
outhouse
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Re: Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote: You recognize that Platonists see the soul as being 'the real you.' The body is its prison, right?
You recognize that these traditions were being used rhetorically to build Pauls authority in battles against heretics?


You also need to be able to address they did view a difference between spiritual and physical ascension. And a dream/vision of ascension is not necessarily either.
outhouse
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Re: Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by outhouse »

Secret Alias wrote:It is difficult to go further with this discussion.

yes but understand I'm the only one willing to hear you out and try and make something of your meal
Clive
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Re: Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by Clive »

Kepler thought there was a relationship, was this a commonly held ancient belief that musical notes and the heavens were linked?

http://www.sacred-texts.com/astro/how/how06.htm
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive
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Re: Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by Clive »

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Gr3 ... ts&f=false

Pythagorus, movement of the planets and music.

Now, how many fish did Jesus catch?

I am not going solar stuff here, but asking about the thought patterns that were used then. Remember, the universe had not been simplified then into our heliocentric, bodies are real solutions.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive
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Re: Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by Clive »

No, let me correct this.


In earliest Christian antiquity Paul was understood to have had a dream/vision about ascending to the 'third heaven' by his own words.


It was not a physical ascension
What were dreams thought to be in the ancient world compared with now? What was the purpose of the brain thought to be then?

What was "physical" in the ancient world?

Reading Homer, dreams are communications with gods aren't they?
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
lsayre
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Re: Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by lsayre »

Clive wrote:[ What was the purpose of the brain thought to be then?
I believe that most thought it served to regulate the temperature of the body. Thinking was the function of the heart.
outhouse
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Re: Musical Theory and the Ascent to the Third Heaven

Post by outhouse »

Clive wrote:
No, let me correct this.


In earliest Christian antiquity Paul was understood to have had a dream/vision about ascending to the 'third heaven' by his own words.


It was not a physical ascension
What were dreams thought to be in the ancient world compared with now? What was the purpose of the brain thought to be then?

What was "physical" in the ancient world?

Despite the theological rhetoric, people had different views of such. And today with all our knowledge there are literally people so retarded they think the earth is 6000 years old. Sadly there is no shortage of these blithering idiots.


But back then good spirits controlled your mind for positive thoughts and bad spirits controlled negative actions and thoughts.


While more importance was placed on dreams and visions, and their relationship to the physical world, they were just primitive people trying to survive terrible times. Survival mode was first and mythology second. The context of their religious practices while viewed as a matter of life and death in text. In reality it was only practices. The context was not as it is today.


The map is not the territory
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