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Romans 3:19, 'under' the Law?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

Romans 3:19, 'under' the Law?

Postby Gerhard Ebersoehn » Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:01 am

Q~ If all the world is guilty before God, then is everyone under the law?~Q

That is what Romans 3 says. It is the unavoidable conclusion of the whole chapter.

Verse 8b, Paul condemns “some who blaspheme and say … Let us do evil (transgress the Law) that good may come of it.”
[kathohs blasphehmoumetha kai kathohs phasin tines … hoti poiehsohmen ta kaka hina elthehi ta agatha]

Paul says of them, “16destruction and misery are in their ways.” [suntrimma kai talaipohria en tais hodois autohn]

Paul asks,
“9What then, Do we (who obey the Law), do any better (than they)?”
“Not at all”, says Paul, “For we a priori proved BOTH Jews (Law-keepers) and Gentiles (the Law-less) to be ALL under sin.”
[Ti oun? proechometha? Ou pantohs! Proehitiasametha gar Ioudaious TE KAI Hellehnas PANTAS huph’ hamartian einai]

“10AS IT IS WRITTEN (in the Law), There is NONE (neither Law-less or Law-abider), righteous—no, NOT ONE!
[KATHOHS GEGRAPTAI oti Ouk estin dikaios OUDE HEIS!]
“There is NONE who understands.”
[Ouk estin ho suniohn]
“11There is NONE that seeketh after God.”
[Ouk estin ho ekdzehtohn ton Theon.]
“12ALL turned away, TOGETHER they became unprofitable.”
[PANTES eklekinan HAMA ehchreohthehsan]
“There is NONE that does good / kindness (Jew or Gentile)—there is not so much as ONE.”
[Ouk estin HO poiohn chrehstotehta—ouk estin heohs HENOS!]

Because EVERYONE’S “13throat is an open grave; because ALL with their tongues speak deceitfully; because the poison of asps is under EVERYONE’S lips; 14because of ALL the mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; and 15swift the feet of EVERYONE are to shed blood.”

“17The Way of Peace (Jesus Christ) they ALL have not known.”
[Kai Hodon Eirehnehs OUK egnehsan]
“18There is no fear of God before the eyes of ANY!”
[Ouk estin phobos Theou apenanti tohn ophthalmohn autohn]

“9For we a priori proved BOTH Jews (Law-keepers) and Gentiles (the Law-less) to be ALL under sin 10AS IT IS WRITTEN (in the Law), There is NONE (neither Law-less nor Law-abider), righteous—no, NOT ONE!”

“19Now we know that what things SOEVER the Law saith, it says to THEM IN THE LAW so that EVERY mouth may be stopped and ALL THE WORLD GUILTY / UNDER JUDGMENT BEFORE GOD may become.”
[Oidamen de hoti HOSA HO NOMOS legei tois en tohi vomohi lalei hina PAHN stoma phragehi kai UPODIKOS genehtai PAHS HO KOSMOS TOHI THEOHI].

There you have it! “All” are : “under SIN”; “all are “under JUDGMENT BEFORE GOD”. “None”, in fact, are “IN THE LAW … before God”!

Now switch around and make everything what Paul wrote the direct OPPOSITE of it, and just corrupt HIS words “IN the Law”, into “UNDER the Law”.
Gerhard Ebersoehn
 
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Re: Romans 3:19, 'under' the Law?

Postby Secret Alias » Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:01 am

Without spending the time to parse what it is you are saying and why you are saying it - you know there were great disputes in the second and third centuries over what the apostle ACTUALLY wrote viz. large parts of his writings as we now have them are likely secondary additions.
“Finally, from so little sleeping and so much reading, his brain dried up and he went completely out of his mind.”
― Miguel de Cervantes Saavedra, Don Quixote
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Re: Romans 3:19, 'under' the Law?

Postby iskander » Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:21 pm

Gerhard Ebersoehn wrote:Q~ If all the world is guilty before God, then is everyone under the law?~Q

That is what Romans 3 says. It is the unavoidable conclusion of the whole chapter.

Verse 8b, Paul condemns “some who blaspheme and say … Let us do evil (transgress the Law) that good may come of it.”
[kathohs blasphehmoumetha kai kathohs phasin tines … hoti poiehsohmen ta kaka hina elthehi ta agatha]

Paul says of them, “16destruction and misery are in their ways.” [suntrimma kai talaipohria en tais hodois autohn]

Paul asks,
“9What then, Do we (who obey the Law), do any better (than they)?”
“Not at all”, says Paul, “For we a priori proved BOTH Jews (Law-keepers) and Gentiles (the Law-less) to be ALL under sin.”
[Ti oun? proechometha? Ou pantohs! Proehitiasametha gar Ioudaious TE KAI Hellehnas PANTAS huph’ hamartian einai]

“10AS IT IS WRITTEN (in the Law), There is NONE (neither Law-less or Law-abider), righteous—no, NOT ONE!
[KATHOHS GEGRAPTAI oti Ouk estin dikaios OUDE HEIS!]
“There is NONE who understands.”
[Ouk estin ho suniohn]
“11There is NONE that seeketh after God.”
[Ouk estin ho ekdzehtohn ton Theon.]
“12ALL turned away, TOGETHER they became unprofitable.”
[PANTES eklekinan HAMA ehchreohthehsan]
“There is NONE that does good / kindness (Jew or Gentile)—there is not so much as ONE.”
[Ouk estin HO poiohn chrehstotehta—ouk estin heohs HENOS!]

Because EVERYONE’S “13throat is an open grave; because ALL with their tongues speak deceitfully; because the poison of asps is under EVERYONE’S lips; 14because of ALL the mouth is full of cursing and bitterness; and 15swift the feet of EVERYONE are to shed blood.”

“17The Way of Peace (Jesus Christ) they ALL have not known.”
[Kai Hodon Eirehnehs OUK egnehsan]
“18There is no fear of God before the eyes of ANY!”
[Ouk estin phobos Theou apenanti tohn ophthalmohn autohn]

“9For we a priori proved BOTH Jews (Law-keepers) and Gentiles (the Law-less) to be ALL under sin 10AS IT IS WRITTEN (in the Law), There is NONE (neither Law-less nor Law-abider), righteous—no, NOT ONE!”

“19Now we know that what things SOEVER the Law saith, it says to THEM IN THE LAW so that EVERY mouth may be stopped and ALL THE WORLD GUILTY / UNDER JUDGMENT BEFORE GOD may become.”
[Oidamen de hoti HOSA HO NOMOS legei tois en tohi vomohi lalei hina PAHN stoma phragehi kai UPODIKOS genehtai PAHS HO KOSMOS TOHI THEOHI].

There you have it! “All” are : “under SIN”; “all are “under JUDGMENT BEFORE GOD”. “None”, in fact, are “IN THE LAW … before God”!

Now switch around and make everything what Paul wrote the direct OPPOSITE of it, and just corrupt HIS words “IN the Law”, into “UNDER the Law”.


Gerhard Ebersoehn wrote:Q~ If all the world is guilty before God, then is everyone under the law?~Q



Romans 3
19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced, and the whole world may be held accountable to God
20For ‘no human being will be justified before him by works of the law, for through the law comes knowledge of sin.



"Paul in verses 19-20 draws out the implications of this universal bondage to sin :all stand condemned before the divine bar of judgement and are unable to escape that condemnation by anything they do. Thus is the way prepared for the proclamation of God's righteousness in Christ.( verses 21-26)"

The Epistle to the Romans. Douglas J. Moo
iskander
 
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Re: Romans 3:19, 'under' the Law?

Postby iskander » Tue Apr 19, 2016 5:27 am

The axiomatic declaration of Romans 3: 19-20 is the foundation of all religions I know. It says that: there is a non-material form of life which governs the material form of life :the living must obey the laws enacted by the invisible , non-material , world.


This dominance of the non-material existence over the material existence is found in its simple expression in book 23 of the Iliad when the ghost of Patroclus appears to Achilles.

"[65] then there came to him the spirit of hapless Patroclus, in all things like his very self, in stature and fair eyes and in voice, and in like raiment was he clad withal; and he stood above Achilles' head and spake to him, saying:“Thou sleepest, and hast forgotten me, Achilles. [70] Not in my life wast thou unmindful of me, but now in my death! Bury me with all speed, that I pass within the gates of Hades. Afar do the spirits keep me aloof, the phantoms of men that have done with toils, neither suffer they me to join myself to them beyond the River, but vainly I wander through the wide-gated house of Hades. [75] And give me thy hand, I pitifully entreat thee, for never more again shall I come back from out of Hades, when once ye have given me my due of fire. Never more in life shall we sit apart from our dear comrades and take counsel together, but for me hath loathly fate"
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... Acard%3D54


For those who do not believe in the existence of an afterlife every religion is a closed book ; only religious people should be considered as political agents representing one group.
For those who believe in a dominant invisible power governing their behaviour , the specific nature of that belief is very important.

Why are you interested in Romans 3 :19?
iskander
 
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