Message

Mythicism among the Cathars: smoking gun

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.

Mythicism among the Cathars: smoking gun

Postby Giuseppe » Thu Jun 30, 2016 7:18 am

I quote from:
RANIERO SACCONI,
Summa de Catharis et Leonistis

Item iste Iohannes recipit totam bibliam sed putat eam scriptam fuisse in alio mundo et ibidem esse formatos Adam et Evam.
Item credit quod Noe, Abraham, Isaac et Iacob et ceteri patriarchae et Moyses et Iosue et omnes prophetae et beatus Iohannes Baptista placuerunt deo et quod fuerunt homines in alio mundo.
Item quod Christus natus est ex patribus secundum carnem antiquis supra nominatis, et quod vere assumpsit carnem ex beata Virgine et vere passus est, crucifixus, mortuus et sepultus et resurrexit tertia die, sed putat quod omnia praedicta fuerunt in alio superiori mundo et non in isto.
Item quod in praedicto mundo totum humanum genus incurrit mortem propter peccatum cui obedivit, quod peccatum a praedicto Iohanne principium et causa omnium malorum sicut saepe dictum est supra, et corporibus eorum ibidem sepultis, animae descenderunt necessario infernum, id est in hunc mundum, et ad hunc infernum descendit Christus ut auxiliaretur eis.
Item credit quod ibidem fiet resurrectio mortuorum scilicet quod unaquaeque dei recipiet proprium corpus.
Item quod verus deus dedit in eodem mundo populo supradicto legem Moysi. Ibidem etiam offerebant sacerdotes hostias et holocausta pro peccatis populi, quae secundum legem praecipiebantur offerri.
Item in eodem loco Christus ad litteram fecit vera miracula, suscitando mortuos et illuminando caecos et pascendo de quinque panis hordeaceis quinque millia virorum, exceptis mulieribus et parvulis.
Quid plura? Quidquid in tota biblia legitur fuisse in hoc mundo ipse in quodam alio mundo ad litteram fuisse convertit.

http://digilander.libero.it/eresiemedievali/sacconi.htm

Translation:

Again, this John [a Cathar] accepts the whole Bible but he thinks that it was written in the other world where he thinks that were formed Adam and Eve. He believes too that Noah, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and the other patriarchs were liked by God and they were men in another world.
So, too, that Christ is born according to flesh from fathers above named, that he assumed a true flesh from the saint Virgin, that he really suffered, was crucified, died, was buried and was risen the third day, but he believes that all this is happened in another world, higher, and not in this one... So too, that the true God gave the law of Moses to the people in that same world. For there were the priests who were offering, for the sins of the people, the burnt offerings and sacrifices according to the law. So too there Christ did really miracles, raising the dead, by enlightening the blind and feeding by five barley bread five thousand men, besides women and children.
In sum, all that is read in the Bible be happened in this world, he put literally in some other world.


It seems that this is just what says the Doherty-Carrier mythicism!
Last edited by Giuseppe on Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italia

Advertisements

by »

 

Re: Mythicism among the Cathars?

Postby Giuseppe » Thu Jun 30, 2016 8:09 am

The belief in two crucifixions is one of their most secret doctrines (est unum de secretissimis eorum). They dare not preach it publicly, for fear that the people will scandalize.

(from Liber suprastella of Salvo Burci).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italia

Re: Mythicism among the Cathars?

Postby Giuseppe » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:46 am

Pierre de Vaux-de-Cernay, Historia Albigensis:

They declared that all of the patriarchs of the Old Testament were damned; they asserted that John the Baptist was one of the greatest devils.

And they also said in their secret meetings that the Christ who was born in the earthly and visible Bethlehem and crucified in Jerusalem was evil; and that Mary Magdalene was his concubine; and that she was the woman taken in adultery of whom we read in Scripture [John 8:3].

Indeed, the good Christ they say neither ate nor drank nor assumed the true flesh, nor was he ever in this world except spiritually in the body of Paul. But for this reason we say "in the earthly and visible Bethlehem": The heretics believe there to be another earth, new and invisible, and in this second earth some of them believe the good Christ was crucified.


This is the true smoking gun supporting mythicism: it is impossibile that the belief that Jesus never existed in this world but was crucified in another world was a mere medieval Cathar phantasy. If the Cathars knew the Ascension of Isaiah, then it is extremely more expected that the AoI was the real source of that belief.

Thanks to Pierre de Vaux-de-Cernay, now we know that Earl Doherty is right when he argued that some of the opponents of Ignatius were mythicist Christians (ant not merely docetics):

. Close your ears, then, if anyone preaches to you without speaking of Jesus Christ. Christ was of David’s line. He was the son of Mary; he was truly (alēthōs) and indeed born, and ate and drank; he was truly persecuted in the days of Pontius Pilate, and truly and indeed crucified…He was also truly raised from the dead.



what the Cathars said " in their secret meetings" according to Pierre de Vaux-de-Cernay:what Ignatius said in his Epistole to Thrallians
. Indeed, the good Christ they say ... nor assumed the true flesh, nor was he ever in this world except spiritually in the body of Paul.. Close your ears, then, if anyone preaches to you without speaking of Jesus Christ. Christ was of David’s line. He was the son of Mary; he was truly (alēthōs) and indeed born, ...
. neither ateand ate
nor drankand drank
But for this reason we say "in the earthly and visible Bethlehem": The heretics believe there to be another earth, new and invisible, and in this second earth some of them believe the good Christ was crucified.he was truly persecuted in the days of Pontius Pilate, and truly and indeed crucified…He was also truly raised from the dead.
Last edited by Giuseppe on Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:54 am, edited 1 time in total.
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italia

Re: Mythicism among the Cathars: smoking gun

Postby Giuseppe » Fri Jul 15, 2016 3:52 am

The idea that Mary Magdalene was the concubine of the "evil Christ" (born "in the earthly and visibile Bethlehem") was really part of the Cathar attack against the Catholic notion of a "Jesus true god and true man".
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italia

Re: Mythicism among the Cathars: smoking gun

Postby Peter Kirby » Fri Jul 15, 2016 4:13 pm

Interesting. This is the wiki page on this Pierre:

Peter of Vaux de Cernay
"... almost every critical biblical position was earlier advanced by skeptics." - Raymond Brown
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
 
Posts: 4929
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Orange County

Re: Mythicism among the Cathars?

Postby andrewcriddle » Sat Jul 16, 2016 2:10 am

Giuseppe wrote:Pierre de Vaux-de-Cernay, Historia Albigensis:

They declared that all of the patriarchs of the Old Testament were damned; they asserted that John the Baptist was one of the greatest devils.

And they also said in their secret meetings that the Christ who was born in the earthly and visible Bethlehem and crucified in Jerusalem was evil; and that Mary Magdalene was his concubine; and that she was the woman taken in adultery of whom we read in Scripture [John 8:3].

Indeed, the good Christ they say neither ate nor drank nor assumed the true flesh, nor was he ever in this world except spiritually in the body of Paul. But for this reason we say "in the earthly and visible Bethlehem": The heretics believe there to be another earth, new and invisible, and in this second earth some of them believe the good Christ was crucified.


This is the true smoking gun supporting mythicism: it is impossibile that the belief that Jesus never existed in this world but was crucified in another world was a mere medieval Cathar phantasy. If the Cathars knew the Ascension of Isaiah, then it is extremely more expected that the AoI was the real source of that belief.

Thanks to Pierre de Vaux-de-Cernay, now we know that Earl Doherty is right when he argued that some of the opponents of Ignatius were mythicist Christians (ant not merely docetics):

. Close your ears, then, if anyone preaches to you without speaking of Jesus Christ. Christ was of David’s line. He was the son of Mary; he was truly (alēthōs) and indeed born, and ate and drank; he was truly persecuted in the days of Pontius Pilate, and truly and indeed crucified…He was also truly raised from the dead.



what the Cathars said " in their secret meetings" according to Pierre de Vaux-de-Cernay:what Ignatius said in his Epistole to Thrallians
. Indeed, the good Christ they say ... nor assumed the true flesh, nor was he ever in this world except spiritually in the body of Paul.. Close your ears, then, if anyone preaches to you without speaking of Jesus Christ. Christ was of David’s line. He was the son of Mary; he was truly (alēthōs) and indeed born, ...
. neither ateand ate
nor drankand drank
But for this reason we say "in the earthly and visible Bethlehem": The heretics believe there to be another earth, new and invisible, and in this second earth some of them believe the good Christ was crucified.he was truly persecuted in the days of Pontius Pilate, and truly and indeed crucified…He was also truly raised from the dead.

The problem is that these very interesting views can not be regarded as based on the Ascension of Isaiah in any of its known versions.

The Ascension of Isaiah is just not a radically dualist text. In the Ascension of Isaiah Satan and his Angels are rebels against the one true God. Satan is not a second God, the evil creator of the world we live in, which is what the radical dualist Cathars believed.

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle
 
Posts: 1249
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Re: Mythicism among the Cathars: smoking gun

Postby Clive » Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:09 am

As I recall. catharism is an import from the East when catholic troops met various Islamic troops/societies in many places across Eastern Europe/the levant. Its roots are possibly then directly to zoroastrianism, and we need to explore texts and thinkers from that source.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bogomilism
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive
 
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Mythicism among the Cathars: smoking gun

Postby Clive » Sat Jul 16, 2016 4:23 am

The Bogomils taught that God had two sons, the elder Satanail and the younger Michael. The elder son rebelled against the father and became the evil spirit. After his fall he created the lower heavens and the earth and tried in vain to create man; in the end he had to appeal to God for the Spirit. After creation Adam was allowed to till the ground on condition that he sold himself and his posterity to the owner of the earth. Then Michael was sent in the form of a man; he became identified with Jesus, and was "elected" by God after the baptism in the Jordan. When the Holy Ghost (again Michael) appeared in the shape of the dove, Jesus received power to break the covenant in the form of a clay tablet (hierographon) held by Satanail from Adam. He had now become the angel Michael in a human form; as such he vanquished Satanail, and deprived him of the termination -il = God, in which his power resided. Satanail was thus transformed into Satan. Through his machinations the crucifixion took place, and Satan was the originator of the whole Orthodox community with its churches, vestments, ceremonies, sacraments and fasts, with its monks and priests. This world being the work of Satan, the perfect must eschew any and every excess of its pleasure. But the Bogomils did not go so far as to recommend asceticism.[6]

They held the "Lord's Prayer" in high respect as the most potent weapon against Satan, and had a number of conjurations against "evil spirits". Each community had its own twelve "apostles", and women could be raised to the rank of "elect". The Bogomils wore garments like mendicant friars and were known as keen missionaries, travelling far and wide to propagate their doctrines. Healing the sick and exorcising the evil spirit, they traversed different countries and spread their apocryphal literature along with some of the books of the Old Testament, deeply influencing the religious spirit of the nations, and preparing them for the Reformation.[6] They accepted the four Gospels, fourteen Epistles of Paul, the three Epistles of John, James, Jude, and an Epistle to the Laodiceans, which they professed to have. They sowed the seeds of a rich, popular religious literature in the East as well as the West. The Historiated Bible, the Letter from Heaven, the Wanderings through Heaven and Hell, the numerous Adam and Cross legends, the religious poems of the "Kalēki perehozhie" and other similar productions owe their dissemination to a large extent to the activity of the Bogomils of Bulgaria, and their successors in other lands.[6]


I get the impression studying specific religions may not be that fruitful. What is needed is to explore sets of ideas and practices in common and how they have evolved.

Thus these alleged heresies are mixes of zarathustra judaism, plato, islam and xianity. We should be looking for the connections, how beliefs and rituals evolved, conflicted and become institutionalised.
"We cannot slaughter each other out of the human impasse"
Clive
 
Posts: 1197
Joined: Sun Aug 17, 2014 2:20 pm

Re: Mythicism among the Cathars: smoking gun

Postby Giuseppe » Sat Jul 16, 2016 10:27 pm

. The problem is that these very interesting views can not be regarded as based on the Ascension of Isaiah in any of its known versions.

The Ascension of Isaiah is just not a radically dualist text. In the Ascension of Isaiah Satan and his Angels are rebels against the one true God. Satan is not a second God, the evil creator of the world we live in, which is what the radical dualist Cathars believed.

Surely the radical gnostic dualism had different origins from a mere reading of AoI but I talk about the specific Cathar Esoterical Mythicism (CEM) as described by Pierre de Vaux-de-Cernay: relative to the secrete doctrine of only "some of them".

Once you recognize the impossibility that the CEM is a mere late Cathar product but comes from the Cathar reading of an older text (the Catharism being very relatively recent to have real historical links with the early Christianity) , then that text can be very probably only the AoI, given the evidence that:
1) the AoI was used by Cathars,
2) the AoI can authorize a Mythicist reading in a more explicit manner compared with any other NT book
3) a subtle clue in this sense comes from another Cathar (clearly) myhicist passage:
There are others among them who think that Christ died not once, but several times ; and go up to say that he suffered and was put to death in each of the seven heavens
(from the Summa of Peter of Verona)

The cosmology of the AoI is probably meant behind the mention of the "seven heavens", even if obviously the AoI doesn't talk about seven crucifixions (surely a Cathar way to say that each of these seven heavens was entirely corrupted and therefore in need of a purification by Christ just as the lower among them).
Nihil enim in speciem fallacius est quam prava religio. -Liv. xxxix. 16.
Giuseppe
 
Posts: 2114
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2015 5:37 am
Location: Italia

Re: Mythicism among the Cathars: smoking gun

Postby andrewcriddle » Tue Jul 19, 2016 9:15 pm

Giuseppe wrote:Surely the radical gnostic dualism had different origins from a mere reading of AoI but I talk about the specific Cathar Esoterical Mythicism (CEM) as described by Pierre de Vaux-de-Cernay: relative to the secrete doctrine of only "some of them".

Once you recognize the impossibility that the CEM is a mere late Cathar product but comes from the Cathar reading of an older text (the Catharism being very relatively recent to have real historical links with the early Christianity) , then that text can be very probably only the AoI, given the evidence that:
1) the AoI was used by Cathars,
2) the AoI can authorize a Mythicist reading in a more explicit manner compared with any other NT book
3) a subtle clue in this sense comes from another Cathar (clearly) myhicist passage:
There are others among them who think that Christ died not once, but several times ; and go up to say that he suffered and was put to death in each of the seven heavens
(from the Summa of Peter of Verona)

The cosmology of the AoI is probably meant behind the mention of the "seven heavens", even if obviously the AoI doesn't talk about seven crucifixions (surely a Cathar way to say that each of these seven heavens was entirely corrupted and therefore in need of a purification by Christ just as the lower among them).

Can you give a reference please for the citation of Peter of Verona ?

Andrew Criddle
andrewcriddle
 
Posts: 1249
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 12:36 am

Advertisement

by »

 

Next

Return to Christian Texts and History

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], Google [Bot], Google Adsense [Bot], MrMacSon and 54 guests