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by MrMacSon
Mon Oct 18, 2021 11:49 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."
Replies: 11
Views: 390

Re: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."

Firstly, multiple church fathers note that the "Gospel of John" was heavily used by various Gnostics. In his commentary on John, Origen discusses some of their interpretations of the Gospel. In one particular section he notes an alterative reading of the prologue by Heracleon. It reads: h...
by MrMacSon
Sun Oct 17, 2021 2:43 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Why did the Gnostics use Paul and Gospels?
Replies: 40
Views: 1006

Re: Why did the Gnostics use Paul and Gospels?

[Why] Marcion and Gnostics used Paul and the Gospels Did Gnostics like the Sethians and Valentinians use Paul and the Gospels? If so, in what state--what version-- were they? Did Marcion use the Gospels (plural)? (we know he at least collected ten Pauline epistles; Robert M Price thinks he wrote so...
by MrMacSon
Sun Oct 17, 2021 1:44 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."
Replies: 11
Views: 390

Re: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."

rgprice, Those passages from BeDuhn are beside the point I'm making. The issue is not just, "that Marcion had a read a Gospel and then written his Gospel in response to it." BeDuhn almost exclusively focusses on the Evangelion and it's relationship to Luke. He hardly touches the other cano...
by MrMacSon
Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:48 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Why did the Gnostics use Paul and Gospels?
Replies: 40
Views: 1006

Re: Why did the Gnostics use Paul and Gospels?

Well, having thought more about this, let me put this forward: God-fearers/worshipers of Theos Hypsistos, had been around and been involved in the worship of the Jewish God and the use of the Jewish scriptures since at least the end of the second century BCE. Prior to the First Jewish-Roman War, th...
by MrMacSon
Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:40 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."
Replies: 11
Views: 390

Re: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."

Thanks for the clarification, but either way, it sounds like nonsense to me. Cheers, RG. I'll need to sit back and look at it all with your perspective in mind (through your lens, to put it another way). First, can you clarify this? - Again I come back to the fact that the statements that Vinzent a...
by MrMacSon
Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:00 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Questions about Dating 1 Clement
Replies: 24
Views: 625

Re: Questions about Dating 1 Clement

So, I have been fascinated by Neil Godfrey's recent discussion upon this forum of the ways in which 1 Clement is dated, and I have some questions about that. 1. Was there any reason why people around 170 CE might have wanted to forge a document dating back decades and addressing the issues that 1 C...
by MrMacSon
Fri Oct 15, 2021 1:41 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."
Replies: 11
Views: 390

Re: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."

I disagree with Vinzent's reading of Papias and Tertullian. Vinzent reads passages such as the following from Tertullian and takes them at face value: Of the apostles, therefore, John and Matthew first instil faith into us; while of apostolic men, Luke and Mark renew it afterwards. These all start ...
by MrMacSon
Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:32 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."
Replies: 11
Views: 390

Re: Origen on John: "Without Him was nothing made... of what is in the earth and the creation."

Firstly, multiple church fathers note that the "Gospel of John" was heavily used by various Gnostics. In his commentary on John, Origen discusses some of their interpretations of the Gospel. In one particular section he notes an alterative reading of the prologue by Heracleon [Was] Heracl...
by MrMacSon
Thu Oct 14, 2021 6:27 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Why did the Gnostics use Paul and Gospels?
Replies: 40
Views: 1006

Re: Why did the Gnostics use Paul and Gospels?

It seems that even Marcion's Gospel and Marcion's version of the Pauline letters still deal with the Jewish scriptures and still present a Jesus who is at least tangentially tied to Judaism. Given the teachings of the Gnostics, why did they deal with these materials at all? I'm not sure Marcion was...
by MrMacSon
Wed Oct 13, 2021 7:46 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Mark's relation to Gnosticism...
Replies: 17
Views: 432

Re: Mark's relation to Gnosticism...

Both appropriate Marcion's Gospel In what way or apects do you think they do that? Are you aware of Klinghardt on this, eg. - https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=113755#p113755 and the next post in that thread, ie. https://earlywritings.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=113756#p113756 But what ...