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by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:10 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

And on the article. It's great that you've written that. Let me see how things go tonight. But there is another article to look at which compares Clement of Alexandria's references to another ancient author. Both authors reference a text written in the same year (143, 144 CE?). I forget. I know I wr...
by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:07 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

And yes it is a well recognized 'fact' about the Marcionite gospel that there was no baptism of Jesus by John and (owing to Adversus Marcionem 4.12) there is an 'unexplained' or uncontextualized reference to John early in the text. This situation has been acknowledged since Harnack.
by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:03 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

On Shaye Cohen's theory: https://books.google.com/books?id=7anDFrErnSIC&pg=PA22&lpg=PA22&dq=josephus+aramaic+hypomnema&source=bl&ots=Nv-X61MtD6&sig=h-AzkAggdKFq1XrjeXb1pWwwsDs&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiqzaCu1aDKAhVL8CYKHd9TA2cQ6AEIJjAC#v=onepage&q=josephus%20aram...
by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 6:02 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

If this is the extent of John the Baptist references it's going to be easier to argue for forgery; Antiquities 18.5.2 116-119 Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God, and was a very just punishment for what he did against John called the baptist [the dipper]. ...
by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:58 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

I think the first thing is to find out whether there are John the Baptist references in Jewish Wars.
by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:57 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

I skimmed through your article (we are having a Seahawks party). I think the first question is to ask whether Clement's Josephus (who developed a chronology down to the middle of the second century) is an earlier version of our Antiquities. I am not sure that it makes sense to argue that there was a...
by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 5:46 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

But Josephus is ultimately a Christian or a Christianized text. You accept I assume the Testamonium Flavianum is a forgery and at least a few others. It's not as if Josephus is anything but a Christian source. If you accept the Marcionite gospel was a distinct text from the orthodox gospel(s) surely...
by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 4:40 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

But Peter, Christianity is a (purported) surviving remnant of the remembrance of Jesus's crucifixion. You can posit that it was a fictitious event. But at least there is something to argue on behalf of the existence of Jesus. With John the Baptist you have nothing. No community associated with his (...
by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:52 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Does anyone know where I can reconstruct this understanding or the source behind this: Peter Richardson has observed on the temple mount the remains of a gate across from Robinson's gate. Beyond this gate is a virtual precipice overlooking the Kidron valley. As such, it would have been very difficul...
by Secret Alias
Sun Jan 10, 2016 11:31 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Iosephiana
Replies: 553
Views: 180206

Re: Was the Baptism of John = Forced Conversion of John Hyrc

Indeed if Jesus brought up the episode pushed back to the end of the gospel - viz. 'is the baptism of John from heaven or man' - it would make perfect sense here.