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by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:17 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer
Replies: 20
Views: 309

Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

In addition:
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:04 pm Ignatius wrote "If I do not find it in the archives".
how can the doctrine of Christ be found in the public chronicles ? Can you imagine Josephus who talked about the Christian belief but not about Jesus Christ? :D
by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:12 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer
Replies: 20
Views: 309

Re: Where I diverge from Bruno Bauer

So it is an argument about whether the doctrine of Christ can be found in the ancient texts, not about Christ himself. even when Ignatius says that "the archive is Jesus Christ" himself? How can "Jesus Christ" be a doctrine in this case, when mention is made of archives (=public...
by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 12:00 pm
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Ian Mills's "external evidence" that Luke preceded Marcion
Replies: 17
Views: 342

Re: Ian Mills's "external evidence" that Luke preceded Marcion

Mills has made it clear that the separationists adopted canonical Luke (and Mark). The docetists (and Marcion was one) seem to have adopted *Ev (or proto-John). The separationism seems to be a compromise between docetism and ebionism: the spiritual possessor comes from above but the human recipient ...
by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:55 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Gospel priority
Replies: 98
Views: 2012

Re: Gospel priority

the fact that you can fit the verse about cirumcision in under that interpretation too does not really shift the needle in any significant way. I have introduced the circumcision in the equation to prove that, if a reaction by canonical Luke has to be, then it was not against the adoptionism in Mar...
by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:08 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Gospel priority
Replies: 98
Views: 2012

Re: Gospel priority

What I want to know is why we must accept that the birth narrative in Luke is a reaction to Marcion in the first place. because the presence of the circumcision story in canonical Luke makes it more probable that canonical Luke is a reaction against Marcion, and not a reaction against the adoptioni...
by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 11:01 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Ian Mills's "external evidence" that Luke preceded Marcion
Replies: 17
Views: 342

Re: Ian Mills's "external evidence" that Luke preceded Marcion

The fact that a lot of anti-demiurgists (=Christians who hated YHWH) accepted passively canonical Luke (where YHWH is apparently adored as supreme god and Jesus is recognized as a circumcised pious Jew) is evidence that they were eager to accept the growing new vulgata about the identity of Jesus (a...
by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 10:51 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Gospel priority
Replies: 98
Views: 2012

Re: Gospel priority

I don't understand your question. It is clear to me that if the birth story in Luke is recognized as anti-marcionite, then by logical extension also the birth story in Matthew is anti-marcionite, beyond the chronological order between canonical Luke and Matthew. Marcion is the only prominent figure,...
by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:32 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Ian Mills's "external evidence" that Luke preceded Marcion
Replies: 17
Views: 342

Re: Ian Mills's "external evidence" that Luke preceded Marcion

Mills's argument is particularly ineffective when he insists on the anti-demiurgist use of canonical Luke as corroborating the his view: The received text of Luke was not the special province of monotheists insisting on the continuity between Jewish scripture and the Jesus movement. On the contrary,...
by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:15 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Gospel priority
Replies: 98
Views: 2012

Re: Gospel priority

I do not think you have established either of the premises in (1) or (2) if Luke disturbed himself to report the circumcision of the child Jesus, then he did so in reaction to Marcion rather than in reaction to Mark (where it is assumed that Jesus was born by a Jewish woman and that he was therefor...
by Giuseppe
Sat Mar 23, 2024 9:01 am
Forum: Christian Texts and History
Topic: Gospel priority
Replies: 98
Views: 2012

Re: Gospel priority

Second, i'm having difficulty seeing how there is any need for a 'higher embarrassment'? Are you saying that the theory that the later evangelists might have added the birth narratives to show that Jesus was the Son of God by birth and not just by reception of the Holy Spirit at baptism is insuffic...