Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

What do they believe? What do you think? Talk about religion as it exists today.
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A_Nony_Mouse
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Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by A_Nony_Mouse »

What if I could show an ancient and unambiguous painting of the tree with fruit? And under that tree there is a snake? And the head of that snake is being crushed by the heel of a foot? And the inscription says the snake is the enemy of the god who brings life to the world?

Would this convince you the story of Eden is ancient and therefore Genesis is ancient?

Here is the bad news. http://www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alex ... -eden.html The imagery is old and Egyptian. It was repurposed for the Eden story. As Hollywood would say, the story was reimagined.
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MinorProphet13
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Re: Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by MinorProphet13 »

Not sure I follow your logic.
Even if we assume the symbolism is parallel (there are lots of trees and snakes in mythology)
One is not nessearily dependant on the other, but BOTH may be, as you say "repurposed" or "reimagined" from another (even more ancient?) source.
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Eric
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Re: Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by Eric »

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:What if I could show an ancient and unambiguous painting of the tree with fruit? And under that tree there is a snake? And the head of that snake is being crushed by the heel of a foot? And the inscription says the snake is the enemy of the god who brings life to the world?

Would this convince you the story of Eden is ancient and therefore Genesis is ancient?

Here is the bad news. http://www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alex ... -eden.html The imagery is old and Egyptian. It was repurposed for the Eden story. As Hollywood would say, the story was reimagined.
It is an image telling of a story of some sort without a doubt. To link it as re-purposed to the two creation stories in Genesis, is a hypothesis with an obvious lack of research by the writer of the article. To say that this is a story of the Egyptian God Thoth in the creation of humankind would be interesting to research. As for myself, I cannot say as I have not done enough study in ancient Egyptian art to know. Nor do I think the author of the article himself knows. He is just speculating and using his speculation to downplay something he does not believe and/or hates for what ever his reasons being.
To become fully human is divine.
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Blood
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Re: Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by Blood »

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:What if I could show an ancient and unambiguous painting of the tree with fruit? And under that tree there is a snake? And the head of that snake is being crushed by the heel of a foot? And the inscription says the snake is the enemy of the god who brings life to the world?

Would this convince you the story of Eden is ancient and therefore Genesis is ancient?

Here is the bad news. http://www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alex ... -eden.html The imagery is old and Egyptian. It was repurposed for the Eden story. As Hollywood would say, the story was reimagined.
I like how you don't even attempt to explain what Egyptologists believe this painting means. No, its only relevance is to show that "the Jews" derived the Eden story from an Egyptian painting they could not have possibly seen, or mythology in a language they could not possibly have understood.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
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A_Nony_Mouse
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Re: Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by A_Nony_Mouse »

Eric wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:What if I could show an ancient and unambiguous painting of the tree with fruit? And under that tree there is a snake? And the head of that snake is being crushed by the heel of a foot? And the inscription says the snake is the enemy of the god who brings life to the world?

Would this convince you the story of Eden is ancient and therefore Genesis is ancient?

Here is the bad news. http://www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alex ... -eden.html The imagery is old and Egyptian. It was repurposed for the Eden story. As Hollywood would say, the story was reimagined.
It is an image telling of a story of some sort without a doubt. To link it as re-purposed to the two creation stories in Genesis, is a hypothesis with an obvious lack of research by the writer of the article. To say that this is a story of the Egyptian God Thoth in the creation of humankind would be interesting to research. As for myself, I cannot say as I have not done enough study in ancient Egyptian art to know. Nor do I think the author of the article himself knows. He is just speculating and using his speculation to downplay something he does not believe and/or hates for what ever his reasons being.
For future reference, yes I think talking snakes is an idea that should appeal only to children but not taken seriously passed puberty. It is not a matter of hate but rather the maturity I expect from those who call themselves adults.
The religion of the priests is not the religion of the people.
Priests are just people with skin in the game and an income to lose.
-- The Iron Webmaster
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A_Nony_Mouse
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Re: Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by A_Nony_Mouse »

Blood wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:What if I could show an ancient and unambiguous painting of the tree with fruit? And under that tree there is a snake? And the head of that snake is being crushed by the heel of a foot? And the inscription says the snake is the enemy of the god who brings life to the world?

Would this convince you the story of Eden is ancient and therefore Genesis is ancient?

Here is the bad news. http://www.giwersworld.org/made-in-alex ... -eden.html The imagery is old and Egyptian. It was repurposed for the Eden story. As Hollywood would say, the story was reimagined.
I like how you don't even attempt to explain what Egyptologists believe this painting means. No, its only relevance is to show that "the Jews" derived the Eden story from an Egyptian painting they could not have possibly seen, or mythology in a language they could not possibly have understood.
Seems to me the simplest explanation is the Egyptians created the Eden story. Odds against the accidental usage of the same imagery (tree with fruit, snake, heel on head, enemy of the god who gives life) appears way to high for me.
The religion of the priests is not the religion of the people.
Priests are just people with skin in the game and an income to lose.
-- The Iron Webmaster
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A_Nony_Mouse
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Re: Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by A_Nony_Mouse »

MinorProphet13 wrote:Not sure I follow your logic.
Even if we assume the symbolism is parallel (there are lots of trees and snakes in mythology)
One is not nessearily dependant on the other, but BOTH may be, as you say "repurposed" or "reimagined" from another (even more ancient?) source.
Certainly there are lots of trees and snakes in mythology. How may examples of them as critical items in the same story? How many where the snake is the enemy of the god who brings life to the world AND with fruit on the tree AND a heel on the head of the snake? If this grouping were common all over the ancient world it would be different.
The religion of the priests is not the religion of the people.
Priests are just people with skin in the game and an income to lose.
-- The Iron Webmaster
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by GakuseiDon »

A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Seems to me the simplest explanation is the Egyptians created the Eden story. Odds against the accidental usage of the same imagery (tree with fruit, snake, heel on head, enemy of the god who gives life) appears way to high for me.
I did a quick google search for the origin of the picture, but couldn't find it. Do you have any references to where and when it was found? I think that kind of information is important before the simplest explanation should be derived.

(ETA) I found it! Link is here: http://www.bridgemanart.com/en-GB/asset ... f-inherkha

"Under a sacred sycomore the sun god Ra, in his cat form, kills the snake god Apophis (shown coiled around the sacred sycamore or persea tree which was a symbol of the sun), god of the underworld and symbol of the forces of chaos and evil" -- Ancient Egyptian Date/Period: 20th dynasty c1186-1070 BC

Looks like Ra is killing the snake using a blade. Otherwise, looks genuine enough.
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Blood
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Re: Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by Blood »

GakuseiDon wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Seems to me the simplest explanation is the Egyptians created the Eden story. Odds against the accidental usage of the same imagery (tree with fruit, snake, heel on head, enemy of the god who gives life) appears way to high for me.
I did a quick google search for the origin of the picture, but couldn't find it. Do you have any references to where and when it was found? I think that kind of information is important before the simplest explanation should be derived.

(ETA) I found it! Link is here: http://www.bridgemanart.com/en-GB/asset ... f-inherkha

"Under a sacred sycomore the sun god Ra, in his cat form, kills the snake god Apophis (shown coiled around the sacred sycamore or persea tree which was a symbol of the sun), god of the underworld and symbol of the forces of chaos and evil" -- Ancient Egyptian Date/Period: 20th dynasty c1186-1070 BC

Looks like Ra is killing the snake using a blade. Otherwise, looks genuine enough.
In other words, there is no possible connection to the Eden story. Oh yeah, except for that part where YHWH turns into a cat and kills the snake, which must have been edited out by a redactor.
“The only sensible response to fragmented, slowly but randomly accruing evidence is radical open-mindedness. A single, simple explanation for a historical event is generally a failure of imagination, not a triumph of induction.” William H.C. Propp
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Eric
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Re: Would this show the Eden story is ancient?

Post by Eric »

GakuseiDon wrote:
A_Nony_Mouse wrote:Seems to me the simplest explanation is the Egyptians created the Eden story. Odds against the accidental usage of the same imagery (tree with fruit, snake, heel on head, enemy of the god who gives life) appears way to high for me.
I did a quick google search for the origin of the picture, but couldn't find it. Do you have any references to where and when it was found? I think that kind of information is important before the simplest explanation should be derived.

(ETA) I found it! Link is here: http://www.bridgemanart.com/en-GB/asset ... f-inherkha

"Under a sacred sycomore the sun god Ra, in his cat form, kills the snake god Apophis (shown coiled around the sacred sycamore or persea tree which was a symbol of the sun), god of the underworld and symbol of the forces of chaos and evil" -- Ancient Egyptian Date/Period: 20th dynasty c1186-1070 BC

Looks like Ra is killing the snake using a blade. Otherwise, looks genuine enough.
I would not have guessed that as a cat. Big ears for a cat. However, my understanding is cats are considered sacred in some fashion symbolic in Egyptology.
To become fully human is divine.
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