Would an omnipotent God need to create a hell?

[Gnostic Bishop]

Yes but we are not talking of those. We are talking of the more intelligent part of humanity.

Now answer the question properly.

Why would such people do damage to themselves without a reason?

Regards
DL

People who are insane are not un-intelligent!

I am not sure why you are assuming we are discussing the intelligent part of humanity.

Pretend God exists. Pretend the Christian God exists. Assuming those two things then would you want to spend eternity with him? Worshipping him. Praising him. Thanking him for creating you? How does that sound to you?

Sounds like any God who would demand such things is not much of a God.

You would have been better off to just retract your first stupid remark instead of trying to get out of it this way.

You just made yourself look more foolish.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

moral God

Do we have a new oxymoron? (Euthyphro?)

That is rather a choker eh.

Regards
DL

[Gnostic Bishop]

SteveSchlichter

Do commands and negative consequences for choosing a certain way annul free will?

Yes it does.

Regards
DL

[SteveSchlichter]

SteveSchlichter

Do commands and negative consequences for choosing a certain way annul free will?

Yes it does.

Regards
DL

No, not if you understand the nature of the consequences. Consequences can be natural. they do not have to be simply punitive. A fish may have the free will to live outside of the water but it find that it is most free if it understands it's nature and accepts the restriction of living in water. It doesn't mean it was punished.

You never answered the question of what would be better. Removing moral choices or forcing a specific choice (or something else). If you are sitting in judgment then I think you should have an answer to that.

Steve

[Gnostic Bishop]

SteveSchlichter

Do commands and negative consequences for choosing a certain way annul free will?

Yes it does.

Regards
DL

No, not if you understand the nature of the consequences. Consequences can be natural. they do not have to be simply punitive. A fish may have the free will to live outside of the water but it find that it is most free if it understands it's nature and accepts the restriction of living in water. It doesn't mean it was punished.

You never answered the question of what would be better. Removing moral choices or forcing a specific choice (or something else). If you are sitting in judgment then I think you should have an answer to that.

Steve

Your God tries to force a specific choice by threats and commands.

But I am willing to see if we can answer your question. Let's look at a well known example. Adam and Eve.

Did they know the nature of the consequences for their act?

How many consequences, good and evil did they face and how many were given by God and how many did he just arbitrarily and immorally just add on after the fact?

I think Satan gave more actual information but I will see what you say.

Regards
DL

[SteveSchlichter]

SteveSchlichter

Do commands and negative consequences for choosing a certain way annul free will?

Yes it does.

Regards
DL

No, not if you understand the nature of the consequences. Consequences can be natural. they do not have to be simply punitive. A fish may have the free will to live outside of the water but it find that it is most free if it understands it's nature and accepts the restriction of living in water. It doesn't mean it was punished.

You never answered the question of what would be better. Removing moral choices or forcing a specific choice (or something else). If you are sitting in judgment then I think you should have an answer to that.

Steve

Your God tries to force a specific choice by threats and commands.

But I am willing to see if we can answer your question. Let's look at a well known example. Adam and Eve.

Did they know the nature of the consequences for their act?

How many consequences, good and evil did they face and how many were given by God and how many did he just arbitrarily and immorally just add on after the fact?

I think Satan gave more actual information but I will see what you say.

Regards
DL

Yes, they were told they would die that same day. I have no idea what part of that they understood nor do I think it is relevant. You did not answer my question, you just asked me more questions.

Steve

[Gnostic Bishop]

[

No, not if you understand the nature of the consequences. Consequences can be natural. they do not have to be simply punitive. A fish may have the free will to live outside of the water but it find that it is most free if it understands it's nature and accepts the restriction of living in water. It doesn't mean it was punished.

You never answered the question of what would be better. Removing moral choices or forcing a specific choice (or something else). If you are sitting in judgment then I think you should have an answer to that.

Steve

Your God tries to force a specific choice by threats and commands.

But I am willing to see if we can answer your question. Let's look at a well known example. Adam and Eve.

Did they know the nature of the consequences for their act?

How many consequences, good and evil did they face and how many were given by God and how many did he just arbitrarily and immorally just add on after the fact?

I think Satan gave more actual information but I will see what you say.

Regards
DL[/quote]

Yes, they were told they would die that same day. I have no idea what part of that they understood nor do I think it is relevant. You did not answer my question, you just asked me more questions.

Steve[/quote]

True but I showed your God trying to prevent A & E's choice and moral choice.

I was trying to involve you in seeing that.

Strange that you would see God saying something that A & E could not understand, and using it to punish them later.

I think it quite relevant.

Regards
DL

[SteveSchlichter]

[

No, not if you understand the nature of the consequences. Consequences can be natural. they do not have to be simply punitive. A fish may have the free will to live outside of the water but it find that it is most free if it understands it's nature and accepts the restriction of living in water. It doesn't mean it was punished.

You never answered the question of what would be better. Removing moral choices or forcing a specific choice (or something else). If you are sitting in judgment then I think you should have an answer to that.

Steve

Your God tries to force a specific choice by threats and commands.

But I am willing to see if we can answer your question. Let's look at a well known example. Adam and Eve.

Did they know the nature of the consequences for their act?

How many consequences, good and evil did they face and how many were given by God and how many did he just arbitrarily and immorally just add on after the fact?

I think Satan gave more actual information but I will see what you say.

Regards
DL

Yes, they were told they would die that same day. I have no idea what part of that they understood nor do I think it is relevant. You did not answer my question, you just asked me more questions.

Steve[/quote]

True but I showed your God trying to prevent A & E's choice and moral choice.

I was trying to involve you in seeing that.

Strange that you would see God saying something that A & E could not understand, and using it to punish them later.

I think it quite relevant.

Regards
DL[/quote]

I think you have shown yourself that because that is what you want to see. They could understand the command and that should have been enough. Had obedience to a command been only given once they agree with the command then they are already laying claim to moral autonomy. i.e. the knowledge to discern for themselves what is good and what is evil. I.e. they are a fish wanting to live out of water. the consequence is not punitive.

Besides, I did not say they did not understand the consequence. I said only that I cannot know what they understood of it. They were told they would die and we can assume that they understood that was a negative consequence.

[Gnostic Bishop]

Indeed he showed one.

But how many actual consequences did God immorally and arbitrarily apply?

Regards
DL

[SteveSchlichter]

Indeed he showed one.

But how many actual consequences did God immorally and arbitrarily apply?

Regards
DL

Every consequence we experience is a consequence of death.