new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
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new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
By Robin Waterfield
Available on kindle May 2; in hardback May 30
Publisher : Oxford University Press (May 30, 2023)
Language : English
Hardcover : 296 pages
ISBN-10 : 0197564755
ISBN-13 : 978-0197564752
Item Weight : 1.14 pounds
Dimensions : 6.5 x 1.7 x 8.9 inches
Waterfield, reportedly (I intend to read it starting May 2), accepts Plato's Seventh Letter, and two other letters, as genuine. If that is persuasive, then it will attest to his failure to establish a Platonic polity in Syracuse in Sicily. Such might be, in relation to the c.273-272 proposal, another reality check.
Available on kindle May 2; in hardback May 30
Publisher : Oxford University Press (May 30, 2023)
Language : English
Hardcover : 296 pages
ISBN-10 : 0197564755
ISBN-13 : 978-0197564752
Item Weight : 1.14 pounds
Dimensions : 6.5 x 1.7 x 8.9 inches
Waterfield, reportedly (I intend to read it starting May 2), accepts Plato's Seventh Letter, and two other letters, as genuine. If that is persuasive, then it will attest to his failure to establish a Platonic polity in Syracuse in Sicily. Such might be, in relation to the c.273-272 proposal, another reality check.
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Re: new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
I liked that this book (Waterfield, Plato; info above) gathered practically all that can be known about the life of Plato. And it is scrupulously documented. The writing is clear. It makes a good case that Plato letters 7, 8, and 3 are genuine, written by Plato.
There is some tension between accepting that Plato's dialog characters do not necessarily reveal his own views, but, occasionally, in RW's opinion, one of them does; but this is all clearly marked as such an interpretation; it's all above board. Sometimes there is more information and repetition than some readers may want, including recording and dismissing unreliable traditions--but I am not complaining.
Plato's failed attempt to create a new polity in Syracuse, Sicily especially interested me, given the proposal (not mentioned in the book) that in Alexandria circa 273-272 Plato-inspired agents first composed the five books of Torah, which I consider false.
RW well knows that Plato was influenced by earlier writers. He quotes Isaac Newton saying he himself stood on the shoulders of giants. (Oddly, Newton is not in the index.) Newton, in turn, consciously or not, and not mentioned in the book, repeated, fairly closely, what Bernard of Chartres had previously written. Bernard, don't you know, was a Platonist!
There is some tension between accepting that Plato's dialog characters do not necessarily reveal his own views, but, occasionally, in RW's opinion, one of them does; but this is all clearly marked as such an interpretation; it's all above board. Sometimes there is more information and repetition than some readers may want, including recording and dismissing unreliable traditions--but I am not complaining.
Plato's failed attempt to create a new polity in Syracuse, Sicily especially interested me, given the proposal (not mentioned in the book) that in Alexandria circa 273-272 Plato-inspired agents first composed the five books of Torah, which I consider false.
RW well knows that Plato was influenced by earlier writers. He quotes Isaac Newton saying he himself stood on the shoulders of giants. (Oddly, Newton is not in the index.) Newton, in turn, consciously or not, and not mentioned in the book, repeated, fairly closely, what Bernard of Chartres had previously written. Bernard, don't you know, was a Platonist!
Re: new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
Abstract
Plato of Athens is the first-ever biography of the world-famous philosopher. Born into a well-to-do family, Plato grew up in the gloom of wartime Athens at the end of the fifth century BCE. In his teens he honed his intellect by attending lectures by the many thinkers who passed through Athens and toyed with the idea of writing poetry. He decided to go into politics but became disillusioned, especially after the Athenians condemned his teacher, Socrates, to death. Instead he turned to writing and teaching, focusing especially on political theory, metaphysics, and ethics.
In 383 he founded the Academy, the world’s first higher-educational research and teaching establishment. He also returned after a while to practical politics and spent a considerable amount of time trying to create a constitution for Syracuse in Sicily that would reflect his political ideals. The attempt failed, and Plato’s disappointment can be traced in his later political works. In his lifetime and after, Plato was considered almost divine. This led to the invention of tall tales about him, by both those who adored him and those who wanted to dethrone him.
Plato of Athens steers a judicious course among these stories, debunking some but accepting a kernel of truth in others. As well as tracking the events of his life, considerable attention is paid to his written works—his “dialogues,” as they are called: they are summarized and discussed. Clearly and engagingly written throughout, Plato of Athens is the perfect introduction to the man and his work.
https://academic.oup.com/book/45820
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Re: new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
It is an interesting book.
One reservation. RW accepts the authenticity of the 3rd 7th and 8th letters. I tentatively agree about the 7th and 8th letters but doubt the authenticity of the 3rd. This is of some importance, because the idea that Plato was not only involved in Sicilian politics, (which I accept), but was using the ideas found in the Laws as a basis for political reform, does rather depend on the 3rd letter.
Andrew Criddle
One reservation. RW accepts the authenticity of the 3rd 7th and 8th letters. I tentatively agree about the 7th and 8th letters but doubt the authenticity of the 3rd. This is of some importance, because the idea that Plato was not only involved in Sicilian politics, (which I accept), but was using the ideas found in the Laws as a basis for political reform, does rather depend on the 3rd letter.
Andrew Criddle
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Re: new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
If and when R. E. Gmirkin reads the Waterfield Plato Life book, I would be interested in reading his review, if he cares to write one, here or elsewhere.
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Re: new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
Plato, we may agree, was an excellent writer of dialogues.
But
a) were the Laws and Letter 3, in part, after the fact justifications, given that he was a failed politician?
b) and was his failed attempt to be a good poet relevant to his banning poets from his fantasyland?
But
a) were the Laws and Letter 3, in part, after the fact justifications, given that he was a failed politician?
b) and was his failed attempt to be a good poet relevant to his banning poets from his fantasyland?
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Re: new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
omg, SG -- surely even you must know that what Plato objected to was the way the poets portrayed the gods, the immorality - he was not opposed to the techniques or arts of poetry at all.StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:56 am
b) and was his failed attempt to be a good poet relevant to his banning poets from his fantasyland?
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Re: new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
It is more complicated than that. Plato objected to a lot of the actual content of the poetry of his day, but he was also concerned that the techniques of poetry involve stirring up the emotions in a problematic way.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:22 amomg, SG -- surely even you must know that what Plato objected to was the way the poets portrayed the gods, the immorality - he was not opposed to the techniques or arts of poetry at all.StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:56 am
b) and was his failed attempt to be a good poet relevant to his banning poets from his fantasyland?
See for example Plato (& Aristotle) on Tragedy
Andrew Criddle
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Re: new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
Nor is it as simple as taking Plato's words from Republic when Plato expressed quite different views on the importance of poetry in Laws. There he advocated poetry, song, dance in order to train the feelings in the love of the law and belief it had a divine origin. His myth of Atlantis, even, would have been ideally expressed in poetic form and replace Homer as a core epic.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:50 amIt is more complicated than that. Plato objected to a lot of the actual content of the poetry of his day, but he was also concerned that the techniques of poetry involve stirring up the emotions in a problematic way.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:22 amomg, SG -- surely even you must know that what Plato objected to was the way the poets portrayed the gods, the immorality - he was not opposed to the techniques or arts of poetry at all.StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:56 am
b) and was his failed attempt to be a good poet relevant to his banning poets from his fantasyland?
See for example Plato (& Aristotle) on Tragedy
Andrew Criddle
Laws, of course, is the primary text of relevance in Gmirkin's case -- as SG surely knows.
- Naddaf, Gerard. “The Role of the Poet in Plato’s Ideal Cities of Callipolis and Magnesia.” Kriterion: Revista de Filosofia 48, no. 116 (December 2007): 329–49. https://doi.org/10.1590/S0100-512X2007000200004.
- Naddaf, Gerard and Mathesis Publications, Inc. “Literacy and Poetic Performance in Plato’s Laws:” Ancient Philosophy 20, no. 2 (2000): 339–50. https://doi.org/10.5840/ancientphil200020231.
- Pliaki, Fani. “‘Α Critical Analysis about the Role of Poetry in Plato’s Laws.’” https://www.academia.edu/32967411/_%CE% ... to_s_Laws_.
- Leszl, Walter G. “Plato’s Attitude to Poetry and the Fine Arts, and the Origins of Aesthetics: Part I.” Études Platoniciennes 1 (October 1, 2004): 113–97. https://doi.org/10.4000/etudesplatoniciennes.1121.
- Leszl, Walter G.. “Plato’s Attitude to Poetry and the Fine Arts, and the Origins of Aesthetics : Part II.” Études Platoniciennes, no. 2 (June 16, 2006): 285–351. https://doi.org/10.4000/etudesplatoniciennes.1052.
- Leszl, Walter G. “Plato’s Attitude to Poetry and the Fine Arts, and the Origins of Aesthetics: Part III.” Études Platoniciennes, no. 3 (October 1, 2006): 245–336. https://doi.org/10.4000/etudesplatoniciennes.997.
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Re: new book: Plato of Athens: a Life in Philosophy
Plato objected to the content of epic poetry not epic poetry as such. He seems to have been somewhat hostile to tragedy as such.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 11:01 amNor is it as simple as taking Plato's words from Republic when Plato expressed quite different views on the importance of poetry in Laws. There he advocated poetry, song, dance in order to train the feelings in the love of the law and belief it had a divine origin. His myth of Atlantis, even, would have been ideally expressed in poetic form and replace Homer as a core epic.andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 7:50 amIt is more complicated than that. Plato objected to a lot of the actual content of the poetry of his day, but he was also concerned that the techniques of poetry involve stirring up the emotions in a problematic way.neilgodfrey wrote: ↑Thu Jun 01, 2023 4:22 amomg, SG -- surely even you must know that what Plato objected to was the way the poets portrayed the gods, the immorality - he was not opposed to the techniques or arts of poetry at all.StephenGoranson wrote: ↑Sun May 21, 2023 7:56 am
b) and was his failed attempt to be a good poet relevant to his banning poets from his fantasyland?
See for example Plato (& Aristotle) on Tragedy
Andrew Criddle
Laws, of course, is the primary text of relevance in Gmirkin's case -- as SG surely knows.
- Naddaf, Gerard. “The Role of the Poet in Plato’s Ideal Cities of Callipolis and Magnesia.” Kriterion: Revista de Filosofia 48, no. 116 (December 2007): 329–49. https://doi.org/10.1590/S0100-512X2007000200004.
- Naddaf, Gerard and Mathesis Publications, Inc. “Literacy and Poetic Performance in Plato’s Laws:” Ancient Philosophy 20, no. 2 (2000): 339–50. https://doi.org/10.5840/ancientphil200020231.
- Pliaki, Fani. “‘Α Critical Analysis about the Role of Poetry in Plato’s Laws.’” https://www.academia.edu/32967411/_%CE% ... to_s_Laws_.
- Leszl, Walter G. “Plato’s Attitude to Poetry and the Fine Arts, and the Origins of Aesthetics: Part I.” Études Platoniciennes 1 (October 1, 2004): 113–97. https://doi.org/10.4000/etudesplatoniciennes.1121.
- Leszl, Walter G.. “Plato’s Attitude to Poetry and the Fine Arts, and the Origins of Aesthetics : Part II.” Études Platoniciennes, no. 2 (June 16, 2006): 285–351. https://doi.org/10.4000/etudesplatoniciennes.1052.
- Leszl, Walter G. “Plato’s Attitude to Poetry and the Fine Arts, and the Origins of Aesthetics: Part III.” Études Platoniciennes, no. 3 (October 1, 2006): 245–336. https://doi.org/10.4000/etudesplatoniciennes.997.
(I am more dubious about taking the Athenian stranger in Laws as a spokesman for Plato than so regarding Socrates in the Republic.)
Andrew Criddle