Is Plotinus in the NHL??

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billd89
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Is Plotinus in the NHL??

Post by billd89 »

Plotinus (deceased 270 AD) was supposedly very influential in his day. Papyrus scraps in the bindings of the NHC certainly date the existent books' manufacture after 348 CE. Of course, the original authorial works must be at least +75 years older (and not just the passage from Plato's Republic 588b–589b), to have merited library or collector status -- as these works were, to be re-copied and treasured.

Elsewhere, I've shown how important 'new authorial works' spread slowly, over decades. Because there's no influence whatsoever of 3rd C. Plotinus on 4th C NHL, material of the books is certainly older (not younger) -- despite these copies post-dating Plotinus by ~3 generations. It's likely that copyist(s) of the NHL (c.367 AD) would have known of Plotinus' famed teacher in Alexandria, Ammonius Saccas (240 AD), but I want to look more closely at a Sethian text, the Book of Zostrianos (c.175-200 AD).

16: Ἀμέλιος δὲ ἄχρι τεσ σαράκοντα βιβλίων προκεχώρηκε πρὸς τὸ Ζωστριανοῦ βιβλίον ἀντιγράφων. Πορφύριος δὲ ἐγὼ πρὸς τὸ Ζωροά στρου συχνοὺς πεποίημαι ἐλέγχους͵ ὅλως νόθον τε καὶ νέον τὸ βιβλίον παραδεικνὺς πεπλασμένον τε ὑπὸ τῶν τὴν αἵρεσιν συστησαμένων εἰς δόξαν τοῦ εἶναι τοῦ παλαιοῦ Ζωροάστρου τὰ δόγματα͵ ἃ αὐτοὶ εἵλοντο πρεσβεύειν.

And Amelius proceeded to his fortieth treatise, on the Book of Zostrianos. I, Porphyrius, {also} purposed to conduct tedious examinations of the utterly illegitimate and innovative/strange book, to model the counterfeit and the heretics who were thereby constituted so as to honor the essence of ancient Zoroaster’s dogmata, which they themselves chose to represent or hold in first-place.

Tuscan Amelius joined Plotinus in 246 AD; he had already studied under a Lysimachus and completed a transcription (into Latin?) of Numenius' canon, c.245 AD, five years? ~240-6 AD); presumably, Amelius was about 25 (born c.225 AD) when he joined Plotinus, and did not begin writing his own material until ~265 AD. At more or less the same rate as his mentor, Amelius' fortieth book would have been composed after 275 AD; it seems Porphyry also wrote one later (c.285 AD?)

Another contemporary ~15 yrs older than Porphyry, Amelios wrote against the supposedly ancient Book of Zostrianos around 275-280 AD. Zoroaster (c.900-600 BC) was certainly well-known as "venerable/ancient" by the mid-3rd C. AD. Why should Zostrianos (Ζωστριανοῦ) ever have been confused with Zoroaster (Ζωροάστρου), different names. Nor is it obvious why any Sethian and Manichean Gnostic group could not have borrowed anything from Zoroastrianism, though evidence of that here is weak. In Alexandria (for example), anyone might have elaborated a lightly syncretistic Gnostic interpretation without strong traces to Zoroastrianism -- a writer named 'Zostrianos' didn't even require a definite Seleucid/Persian ancestry. The explanation for the general confusion is itself confounding; we may only speculate. Porphyry does not detail this, unfortunately. I suspect that the Syrian Barbelo mythos forced into overtook the Sethian system c.70-115 AD, as Hermeticism slowly began to decline, with a foreign character more noticeable in the day (and hence, the crude Oriental conflation).

I would guess Amelius (somewhat older than Porphyry, and apparently Plotinus' secretary) should have produced his 40th volume around 280 AD Age 60 (if he produced at the rate of Plotinus), in regards to material ~75 years older. For anyone to think the book was "ancient" required either a long pedigree or for it to have seemed 'ancient' thematically. Why did pagan Porphyry (c.290 AD) label these Gnostics "heretics" -- well, it's Sethian, and from Josephus 90 AD, we know they're an "ancient" Jewish heres). Indeed, the Gnostic ideas of Zostrianos (c.175-200 AD) are NOT Christian but rather Late Sethian if perhaps somewhat Nazorean. So heretical Jewish material was plausibly old enough to convince some readers of a great antiquity (i.e. the Seth/Enoch mythos) tracing back to Chaldaea. It makes sense that Porphyry would know Sethians as "heretics" (from Judaism) without any mention of the 'orthodox Christian' nonsense that everyone wrongly assumes.

If Gnosticism was relatively recent to the period Plotinus was born at (c.204 AD) or later studied in Alexandria (c.232-243 AD), this fact would have been mentioned. Plotinus later argued with sectarians from schools active in his youth, against scholars taught Alexandrian-derivative philosophy which he knew was not 'ancient' -- that doesn't mean it was "new" either. I am curious about anything in Porphyry's work that mentions Hermeticism; I see that Iamblichus claims Porphyry read Hermetic books: what evidence is there of that? (Not Iamblichus' Responses.) Again, Iamblichus would insist there is a Porphyry dialogue w/ against Hermeticism, but I'm not seeing it.
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Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??

Post by Peter Kirby »

billd89 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 7:49 pm Why did pagan Porphyry (c.290 AD) label these Gnostics "heretics" -- well, it's Sethian, and from Josephus 90 AD, we know they're an "ancient" Jewish heres).
Does Josephus refer to a Sethian sect?
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Re: Sethians, again.

Post by billd89 »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:02 pm Does Josephus refer to a Sethian sect?
Sethians were a Judaic people resident in the Siriad of Egypt, discussed by Josephus.
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Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??

Post by Leucius Charinus »

billd89 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:25 pm Sethians were a Judaic people resident in the Siriad of Egypt, discussed by Josephus.
The major collection of literature today classed as Sethian is found in the NHL where there are 11 tracts with 3 more found outside the NHL. Three of the NHL tracts have been identified as utilising the literature of Porphyry who was the student of Plotinus. As such a case may be made that (at least) these three tractates were influenced by Plotinus.

Nag Hammadi library (11 Sethian tractates)

The Apocryphon of John (4 versions) ~~ NHC 2.1, NHC 3.1, NHC 4.1, Berlin Codex
The Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians (2 versions) NHC 3.2, NHC 4.2
The Apocalypse of Paul NHC 5.2
The Apocalypse of Adam NHC 5.5
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth NHC 7.2
Three Steles of Seth NHC 7.5 (Uses the literature of Porphyry)
Zostrianos NHC 8.1 (Uses the literature of Porphyry)

The Thought of Norea NHC 9.2
Marsanes NHC 10.1
Allogenes NHC 11.3 (Uses the literature of Porphyry)
The Trimorphic Protennoia NHC 13.1

Outside NHL (3 Sethian tractates)

* In the Revelation of the Magi, The Magi, originally Sethians,
* The Untitled Apocalypse (or The Gnosis of the Light) (Bruce Codex)​
* The Gospel of Judas (Codex Tchacos)

Moreover the Sethian tracts are nearly all characterised by what academics refers to as "Platonising treatises". Seeing that the NHL codices were physically manufactured around the mid 4th century it seems quite reasonable to view the Platonist influence as attributable to Plotinus and his student Porphyry who had recently published the Enneads of Plotinus.

The Porphyry connection is outlined here:

Porphyry and Gnosticism
Author(s): Ruth Majercik
Source: The Classical Quarterly, Vol. 55, No. 1 (May, 2005), pp. 277-292
Published by: on behalf of Cambridge University Press Classical Association
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3556255
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Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??

Post by andrewcriddle »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Fri Jul 21, 2023 7:42 pm
billd89 wrote: Sun Jun 04, 2023 8:25 pm Sethians were a Judaic people resident in the Siriad of Egypt, discussed by Josephus.
The major collection of literature today classed as Sethian is found in the NHL where there are 11 tracts with 3 more found outside the NHL. Three of the NHL tracts have been identified as utilising the literature of Porphyry who was the student of Plotinus. As such a case may be made that (at least) these three tractates were influenced by Plotinus.

Nag Hammadi library (11 Sethian tractates)

The Apocryphon of John (4 versions) ~~ NHC 2.1, NHC 3.1, NHC 4.1, Berlin Codex
The Coptic Gospel of the Egyptians (2 versions) NHC 3.2, NHC 4.2
The Apocalypse of Paul NHC 5.2
The Apocalypse of Adam NHC 5.5
The Second Treatise of the Great Seth NHC 7.2
Three Steles of Seth NHC 7.5 (Uses the literature of Porphyry)
Zostrianos NHC 8.1 (Uses the literature of Porphyry)

The Thought of Norea NHC 9.2
Marsanes NHC 10.1
Allogenes NHC 11.3 (Uses the literature of Porphyry)
The Trimorphic Protennoia NHC 13.1

Outside NHL (3 Sethian tractates)

* In the Revelation of the Magi, The Magi, originally Sethians,
* The Untitled Apocalypse (or The Gnosis of the Light) (Bruce Codex)​
* The Gospel of Judas (Codex Tchacos)

Moreover the Sethian tracts are nearly all characterised by what academics refers to as "Platonising treatises". Seeing that the NHL codices were physically manufactured around the mid 4th century it seems quite reasonable to view the Platonist influence as attributable to Plotinus and his student Porphyry who had recently published the Enneads of Plotinus.

The Porphyry connection is outlined here:

Porphyry and Gnosticism
Author(s): Ruth Majercik
Source: The Classical Quarterly, Vol. 55, No. 1 (May, 2005), pp. 277-292
Published by: on behalf of Cambridge University Press Classical Association
Stable URL: http://www.jstor.org/stable/3556255
I agree Allogenes is influenced by Porphyry and probably the Steles of Seth; Zostrianos is less clear. Marsanes is probably influenced by the post-Plotinian Neo-Platonist Theodore of Asine.

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Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??

Post by Leucius Charinus »

There is also Trimorphic Protennoia (NHC 13.1) which is described as "Gnostic - Sethian/Neoplatonic" and according to some scholars makes use of fully developed Neoplatonism and thus needs to be dated after Plotinus and his Enneads - the origin of neo-Platonic literature. The text is saturated with the term "the ALL". Many (not all) academics describe this as a "technical term" related to "gnostic cosmology". It is a term found in the Enneads of Plotinus more than 200 times. It occurs in Trimorphic Protennoia 25 times.

Trimorphic Protennoia
Translated by John D. Turner

"I am Protennoia, the Thought that dwells in the Light. I am the movement that dwells in the All, she in whom the All takes its stand, the first-born among those who came to be, she who exists before the All. She (Protennoia) is called by three names, although she dwells alone, since she is perfect. I am invisible within the Thought of the Invisible One. I am revealed in the immeasurable, ineffable (things). I am incomprehensible, dwelling in the incomprehensible. I move in every creature."

///

"I am the Invisible One within the All. It is I who counsel those who are hidden, since I know the All that exists in it. I am numberless beyond everyone. I am immeasurable, ineffable, yet whenever I wish, I shall reveal myself of my own accord. I am the head of the All. I exist before the All, and I am the All, since I exist in everyone."

http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/trimorph.html

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Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??

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andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 2:21 amI agree Allogenes is influenced by Porphyry ...

Andrew Criddle
Majercik [2005], p.277:
What complicates this picture is that Gnostic texts with the titles Zostrianos and Allogenes are also mentioned by Porphyry in his Life of Plotinus (Plot. 16). Porphyry indicates that these and other Gnostic works known to Plotinus and his circle were in the possession of ‘Christian heretics’

Precedence: Allogenes would not be "influenced by Porphyry" but rather vice-versa. Porphyry (270 AD) referencing Gnostic titles "known to Plotinus and his circle" (c.230 AD) strongly implies literature established more than a generation earlier (c.175-200 AD), at least. In Antiquity, literature circulated over generations, rather than months or years: your fallacy is a modern bias assuming 'recent' because that's our reality. It simply was not so, then.

For such literature to have already influenced divers Christian sectaries in Plotinus' lifetime (c.225 AD) logically means known Gnostic Christian groups used even older known works, likely if not probably "pre-Christian" (Gnostics were pre-Christian) from the 1st and 2nd Centuries.

In the First Century, it is also certain Josephus (90 AD) knew Judeo-Sethian -- not Xian! -- myths, of their 'three stele in Egypt', for example. So it's entirely logical that the BOOK 'Three Steles of Seth' (in some form) was likewise already circulating, known literature (c.75 AD, if not earlier), for Josephus to be so familiar with their literary compositions. Older literature, folks.


Majercik [2005] simply has it ass-backwards. Copyists Porphyry and Plotinus plagiarized other, much older ideas; they were influenced by material they admit (and must be) older. That's what is mostr definitely implied, in fact, by the oldest witness here. Porphyry/Plotinus is not the origin but the issue.
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Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??

Post by Leucius Charinus »

billd89 wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 5:11 pm Majercik [2005], p.277:
What complicates this picture is that Gnostic texts with the titles Zostrianos and Allogenes are also mentioned by Porphyry in his Life of Plotinus (Plot. 16). Porphyry indicates that these and other Gnostic works known to Plotinus and his circle were in the possession of ‘Christian heretics’

FWIW I view Vita Plot. 16 as a Christian interpolation.
A Testimonium Porphyrianum equivalent of the Testimonium Flavianum.
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Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??

Post by billd89 »

o.k., you have the right to that opinion.

Back on topic:
I see that Iamblichus claims Porphyry read Hermetic books: what evidence is there of that? (Not Iamblichus' Responses.) Again, Iamblichus would insist there is a Porphyry dialogue w/ against Hermeticism, but I'm not seeing it.

Much of what Andrew Criddle imagines Porphyry's may be recycled Post-Hermetic philosophy, +150 years after Poimandres.
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Re: Is Plotinus in the NHL??

Post by Leucius Charinus »

billd89 wrote: Sat Jul 22, 2023 6:32 pm Back on topic:
I see that Iamblichus claims Porphyry read Hermetic books: what evidence is there of that? (Not Iamblichus' Responses.)

The Hermetic corpus may have also included the books written by Apollonius of Tyana which were preserved in the major temples of Asclepius prior to their destruction during the supreme rule (after 324 CE) of Constantine. These books are listed in this post:
viewtopic.php?p=158541#p158541

As such it is not unreasonable to infer that Porphyry read these books
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