Pillars of Hercules

Discuss the world of the Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, and Egyptians.
User avatar
billd89
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:27 pm
Location: New England, USA

Re: The Griffin; More Interpretation

Post by billd89 »

The Griffin's antennae are an intrinsic featur of this typee, even if poorly rendered on this Seal. Scroll halfway down this webpage to see other examples of Griffin antennae:
http://www.daimonas.com/pages/griffin.html

Here is the drawing version of what I would call the Tel Hazor 'Tunnanu Dragon' Seal. The Griffin is clearer to see -- is there a three-dimensional aspect to these artistic representations?

Image

Wiki tells me "{The Tannin} represents Nebuchadnezzar II (the king of Babylon) in Jeremiah (Jeremiah 51:34) ..." and "In the 580s BC, Nebuchadnezzar engaged in a successful string of military actions in the Levant against the vassal states in rebellion there, likely with the ultimate intent of curbing Egyptian influence in the region. In 587 BC, Nebuchadnezzar destroyed the Kingdom of Judah, and its capital, Jerusalem. The destruction of Jerusalem led to the Babylonian captivity as the city's population, and people from the surrounding lands, were deported to Babylonia. The Jews thereafter referred to Nebuchadnezzar, the greatest enemy they had faced until that point, as a "destroyer of nations" (משחית גוים, Jer. 4:7)..." Jeremiah 49:33 is anachronistic: the city had been defeated & destroyed 150 years earlier.

HOWEVER, since archaeological evidence proves Hazor had been previously destroyed (c.730 BC), depopulated by then, the Biblical Myth of Nebuchadnezzar/ Tannin most likely follows an older convention -- by Egyptianized, or Egypt-aligned local rulers -- of associating encroaching Assyrians w/ Chaos & Evil. This Seal is explicitly Pro-Egyptian/Anti-Assyrian propaganda; it must date to the end of Egypt's sway and waning success in supporting local rulers. Tiglath-pileser III captured Galilee (Ann 18:l'-7'; 24:1'-11'; 2 Kings 15:29) around 732 BC: he would have been portrayed as the Hydra also: this was a period of disorder, collapse, invasion (consistent w/ what the Seal suggests).

On a scientific basis, the local geological record has provided us with proof for a (cataclysmic shift) which apparently overthrew regional rulers quite literally: the M1 8.2 event of 750 BC. The narrative of the Seal would explain both historical Egyptian interventions c.750-735 BC and period Anxieties evident on the plaque.

As a side-note, Genesis 49:21: “Naphtali is a doe set free that bears beautiful fawns” might equate the local people w/ a symbol of Resheph, reiterating the suggestion of a prior post: the Priestly Warrior functions as an amalgam symbol of Resheph-Seth-Yahweh.

Context for Isaiah 14:29: "Do not rejoice, all you Philistines, because the rod that struck you is broken: for out of the serpent's root will spring up a cockatrice -- its fruit will be a fiery basilisk." Or seven heads, maybe? It seems to be a variant of the myth. And THIS is "the rod that smote"?! I see a cockatrice/basilisk, anyway.

IF this 'Tunnanu Dragon' -- battled by a Great (Priestly?) Warrior backed by all sorts of Egyptian symbols of Power -- negatively represented Assyria (c.750 BC) generally, then the Identity of the Warrior(-Priest?) might also allude to a regional Ruler who had successfully defeated Assyrian power before Hazor's eventual collapse. What lineage ruled Hazor 800-750 BC? What was their national mythos? I would tentatively hypothesize an unnamed satrap of Jeroboam II, who fits the Biblical narrative better. Regardless of dates, the "Sins of Jeroboam" may still entail pagan idolatry of Egyptian symbols, as the Seal shows. And WHY the Great Serpent? IF relevant at all, the tutelary deity of the Shalmaneser was the mysterious god Salmānu "the Good One" (??)


To wit: I don't believe this is the 'Herakles Myth'. I doubt it even constitutes one element (and an earlier basis) for a later Interpretatio Graeca by Alcaeus of Mytilene; rather, same-same but different.
Last edited by billd89 on Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ethan
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Pillars of Hercules

Post by Ethan »

That snake is poisonous in the mythology and Melcart/Hercules after defeating the snake dipped his arrow into the poisonous blood and used it to defeat other enemies.

Aeschylus, Eumenides 181
Out, I order you! Go away from this house at once, leave my prophetic sanctuary, so that you may not be struck by a winged glistening snake (πτηνὸν ὄφιν)

πτηνός ὄπις winged snake (פּתן אפעה)
ἀσπίς asp, Egyptian cobra

Deuteronomy 32:33
blood of dragons αἷμα δρακόντων
venom of asps πικρότης ἀσπίδων/πτῆναι

In Deuteronomy 32:33 it pairs פתן and תנן where as in Job 20:16 פתן and אפעה.

Medusa is also depicted with wings and her hair being snakes also the word Hydra (ὕδρα) is a feminine noun, so maybe the Hydra is the prototype of Medusa, in which animal iconography is anthropomorphised. ἔχιδνα/נחש viper is also a feminine noun, metaph. of a treacherous wife .

Image

Medusa as wings and legs, unlike how she is depicted in media today.
Ethan
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Pillars of Hercules

Post by Ethan »

It seems the Leviathan is either a fish or a snake?

Job 41:1 תמשך לויתן בחכה
ἅπτεις ἰχθύδιον? ἐν ἀγκίστρῳ "Can you bind the fish with a hook" ?

Homer Odyssey 4.365
She met me as I wandered alone apart from my comrades, who were ever roaming about the island, fishing with bent hooks, for hunger pinched their bellies; (ἰχθυάασκον γναμπτοῖς ἀγκίστροισιν)

Isaiah 27:1 לויתן נחש ברח "Leviathan the poisonous snake?

φαρμακεύς ברח poisoner
ἔχιδνα נחשׁ echidna?

Ovidius Naso, Metamorphoses 4.481
the venom of Echidna
virus Echidnae

Aristophanes, Frogs 460
Echidna with her hundred heads
ἔχιδνά θ᾽ ἑκατογκέφαλος

Euripides, Heracles 875
the Gorgon child of Night, with a hundred hissing serpent-heads,
Νυκτὸς Γοργὼν ἑκατογκεφάλοις ὄφεων ἰαχήμασι

Euripides, Heracles 1178
Amphitryon - Slain them in a wild fit of frenzy [1190] with arrows dipped in the venom of the hundred-headed hydra
μαινομένῳ πιτύλῳ πλαγχθεὶς ἑκατογκεφάλου τε βαφαῖς ὕδρας.
User avatar
billd89
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:27 pm
Location: New England, USA

Re: TNN (Tunnanu Dragon)

Post by billd89 »

Ethan wrote: Sun Mar 03, 2024 3:35 pm It seems the Leviathan is either a fish or a snake?
Yes and No. The Problem. The Seven-headed Dragon IS an expression of/for the Sea-God Yammu, but the symbol itself needs not be 'aquatic'. A mythological creature and code-phrase for a bestialized enemy eventually passed into folklore (aka bullshit, but also meteorological allegory), to terrify small children and simpletons. Farther from the coast, the term would switch to another imaginary baddie: a relevant transference and analogue. "Big Monster," what have you, something almost inconceivable in weather/Nature, especially of serpentine form : tornado, waterspout; whale, python, etc.

See Rosanna Ann Lu, "The Deification and Demonization of Tĕhôm: From Deity to Deep" (Ph.D. Diss., 2018) -- Note her Appendix B, for relevant OT references in Hebrew. Reading all these examples, one would suppose that Jews were really a sea-faring race!

Sea monster personifications
לויתן leviathan (6)
Isa 27:1 עללויתןנחשברחועללויתןנחשעקלתוןוהרגאתאשר התניןבים
Ps 74:14 אתהרצצתראשילויתןתתננומאכללעםלציים
Ps 104:26 שםאניותיהלכוןלויתןזהיצרתלשחקבו
Job 3:8 יקבהואררייוםהעתידיםעררלויתן
Job 40:25 תמשךלויתןבחכהובחבלתשקיעלשנו
תנין serpent, dragon, monster (14)
Gen 1:21 ויבראאלהיםאתהתנינםהגדליםואתכלנפשהחיההרמשת
Exod 7:9 ואמרתאלאהרןקחאתמטךוהשלךלפניפרעהיהילתנין
Exod 7:10 וישלךאהרןאתמטהולפניפרעהולפניעבדיוויהילתנין
Exod 7:12 וישליכואישמטהוויהיולתנינםויבלעמטהאהרןאתמטתם
Deut 32:33 חמתתנינםיינםוראשפתניםאכזר
Isa 27:1 נחשברחועללויתןנחשעקלתוןוהרגאתהתניןאשרבים
Isa 51:9 עוריכימיקדםדרותעולמיםהלואאתהיאהמחצבתרהבמחוללתתנין
Jer 51:34 כליריקבלענוכתניןמלאכרשומעדני
Ezek 29:3 עליךפרעהמלךמצריםהתניםהגדולהרבץבתוך
Ezek 32:2 אליוכפירגויםנדמיתואתהכתניםבימיםותגחבנהרותיך
Ps 74:13 אתהפוררתבעזךיםשברתראשיתניניםעלהמים
Ps 91:13 עלשחלופתןתדרךתרמסכפירותנין
Ps 148:7 הללואתיהוהמןהארץתניניםוכלתהמות
Job 7:12 הֲיםאניאםתניןכיתשיםעלימשמר
רהב Rahab (selected references)
Isa 51:9 עוריכימיקדםדרותעולמיםהלואאתהיאהמחצבתרהבמחוללתתנין
Ps 87:4 אזכיררהבובבללידעיהנהפלשתוצורעםכוש
Ps 89:11 אתהדכאתכחללרהבבזרועעזךפזרתאויביך
Job 9:13 אלוהלאישיבאפותחתושחחועזרירהב
Job 26:12 בכחורגעהיםובתובנתומחץרהב

Ethan
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Pillars of Hercules

Post by Ethan »

Only Revelations mention δράκων μέγας πυρρός (big red dragon) having seven heads (κεφαλὰς ἑπτὰ) and ten horns (κέρατα δέκα)

Psalm 74:13 brake the heads of dragons in the waters (שברת ראשי תנינים על־המים)
Psalm 74:14 break the heads of leviathan in pieces (רצצת ראשי לויתן)

The Septuagint renders δράκοντος for לויתן and δρακόντων for תנינים .

The end of Psalm 74:14 reads "to be meat to the people inhabiting the wilderness" (מאכל לעם לציים) LXX. βρῶμα λαοῖς τοῖς Αἰθίοψιν. The last word here is Αἰθίοψ (Ethiopia) and the לויתן is eatable. ציים means θῖνες sand-heaps, sand-bank.

Herodotus, The Histories 2.70
After death, the crocodiles are embalmed and buried in sacred coffins. But around Elephantine they are not held sacred, and are even eaten. The Egyptians do not call them crocodiles, but khampsae. The Ionians named them crocodiles, from their resemblance to the lizards which they have in their walls. There are many different ways of crocodile hunting; I will write of the way that I think most worth mentioning. The hunter baits a hook with a hog's back, and lets it float into the midst of the river; he himself stays on the bank with a young live pig, which he beats. [2] Hearing the squeals of the pig, the crocodile goes after the sound, and meets the bait, which it swallows; then the hunters pull the line. When the crocodile is drawn ashore, first of all the hunter smears its eyes over with mud; when this is done, the quarry is very easily mastered—no light matter, without that.
User avatar
billd89
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:27 pm
Location: New England, USA

Re: Seven-Headed Dragon

Post by billd89 »

I've eaten gator tail in a fancy resto. It's... chewy.
(This looks tasty!)
Ethan wrote: Mon Mar 04, 2024 9:50 am Only Revelations mention δράκων μέγας πυρρός (big red dragon) having seven heads (κεφαλὰς ἑπτὰ) ...
I'm not confined by either Biblical references or Xian interpretations. Certainly, the Seven-Headed Dragon does not originate nor is it unique to Revelations; the symbol is much, much older. ('Dragon' or 'Serpent' is a largely trivial distinction to me; your mileage may vary.)

https://oldeuropeanculture.blogspot.com ... ragon.html
Ethan
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Pillars of Hercules

Post by Ethan »

Melqart appears in Greek mythology under Melicertes [Μελικέρτης] also called Palaimon [Παλαίμων] son of Athamas and Ino.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melicertes

Which came first? Melqart or Hercules?
User avatar
billd89
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:27 pm
Location: New England, USA

Re: Herakles

Post by billd89 »

Don't you imagine the Greeks ripped off almost everything, the Interpretatio Graeca as bald cultural fronting ?

The Phoencian was almost certainly (definitely) older.
Ethan
Posts: 978
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2018 1:15 pm
Location: England
Contact:

Re: Pillars of Hercules

Post by Ethan »

The most notable Phoenician in ancient Greek writings is Cadmus, whom i believe to be the guise of Pygmalion. If Cadmus was the King of Tyre, why would a monarch relocate and leave his kingdom behind? Kinda like Jehoiachin and Zedekiah.

I think it may have been a diaspora trigged by the siege of Tyre, perhaps that of Nabû-kudurri-uṣur [Nebuchadnezzar].

Siege of Tyre 586–573 BCE
Hanno 580-556 BCE
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_m ... f_Carthage

The beginning of Carthage aligns with this Siege of Tyre.

Mago I 550-530 BCE
Cyrus the Great 550–530 BCE

Flavius Josephus, Against Apion 1.154
"Nabuchodonosor besieged Tyre for thirteen years in the days of Ithobal, their king; after him reigned Baal, ten years; after him were judges appointed, who judged the people: Ecnibalus, the son of Baslacus, two months; Chelbes, the son of Abdeus, ten months; Abbar, the high priest, three months; Mitgonus and Gerastratus, the sons of Abdelemus, were judges six years; after whom Balatorus reigned one year; after his death they sent and fetched Merbalus from Babylon, who reigned four years; after his death they sent for his brother Hirom, who reigned twenty years. Under his reign Cyrus became king of Persia." So that the whole interval is fifty-four years besides three months; for in the seventh year of the reign of Nebuchadnezzar he began to besiege Tyre, and Cyrus the Persian took the kingdom in the fourteenth year of Hirom.

What was Merbalus doing in Babylon? Where the Tyrians also in captivity?
User avatar
billd89
Posts: 1417
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:27 pm
Location: New England, USA

Re: Resheph-Seth

Post by billd89 »

billd89 wrote: Fri Mar 01, 2024 4:13 pmIt would appear that The "Mighty One with Seven Heads" (Šlyṭ D.šbʿt Rašm) is Leviathan. But also note: here is "Resheph assimilated with Seth as a winged figure spearing Apophis snake, Nineteenth-Twentieth Dynasties {c.1100 BC}, Royal Art and History Museums, Brussels After: Grande,'The Winged Reshep: Egyptian Iconographic Evidence', 391, fig.1."

Image

The Tel Hazor example would suggest Resheph-Seth-Yahweh at a somewhat later date, after 1100 BC. ...
On that image of Seth-Baal above (corrected Date, c. 1,000 BC), see Magda Gad, "Seth Against Apophis. Originating The Scene Depicting Seth Spearing Apophis," (LINK).

Compare Egyptian Seth Slaying a Serpent, Temple of Amun at Hibis, c. 500 BC:

Image
Post Reply