Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

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yakovzutolmai
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Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

Post by yakovzutolmai »

I have been reading about Hatra's patron deity Maren and his son Barmaren. The matriarch of the triad is Marten. The only two details associated with these figures are small taurine horns on the forehead - which recall a Seleucid motif - and the association with Shamash. Either as the power behind these deities (let us say, elevated god kings as avatars of Shamash) or that these deities are attempting to supplant Shamash or serve as the true Shamash.

The royals of Hatra descend very obviously from Adiabene, and Arbela is the source of Mandeanism and Manicheanism, including the Elchasaite variety of Jewish Christianity. There is reason to associate Maren, Barmaren and Marten with Bazeus, Izates and Helena. There is evidence that Bazeus has Seleucid pedigree.

Is Bazeus Elchasai? If so, does this make him - and Maren - the original Mohammed? Barmaren perhaps as an Ali?

Maren/Mohammed/Bazeus (as Judas of Gamala in Jerusalem) ascending from the Temple Mount in the vein of Isaiah from Ascension of Isaiah (moreover, in the vein of Inanna)?

Bazeus/Maren would serve as Joseph to Marten/Helena's Mary. Barmaren is the "Jesus" of the triad. Mohammed's Meccan identity (as opposed to his Jerusalem identity) was descended from Banu Najjar.

Banu Najjar - an Israelite tribe named "Sons of the carpenter". I.e.: Joseph the tekton.

Hatra was the major center of Arabic religion prior to its demise. It was an object of scorn, detested by Rome, Parthia and Persia alike. Squashing it sent its religious systems to Yathrib/Medina. Surely enough, the Arab empire arose to defeat Rome and Persia both, in the seventh century. The geopolitical continuity is as strong as it could be. What about the religious?
FollowerOfMessiah
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Re: Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

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Should be noted that Muhammad in the Islamic tradition is a Banu Hashim = Banu HaShem = Bnei Hashem. This is a common name for angelic beings in Jewish Angelology, meaning Sons of God (recall the division of the nations in the Torah). Muhammad is an aspect of Jesus in some heterodox Jewish Christian sects.
His great great grandfather's name is Hashim (= HaSHEM) and his great grandmother the Bint Najjar was called Salma = Salome.

Or again:
'Ali + Fatima + Husayn (I may also suggest-- Osiris/Isis/Horus, God/Mary/Jesus)
'Ali is called the Lion in Alawism; Abbas, the ancestor of the Abbassids, means Lion; (connections with the Lion of Judah, Persian dynastic royalty).
The Father-God + The Queen of Heaven + The Divine Son
If we combine the Lion motif with the Sun motif (Muhammad) we get
THE LION AND SUN which is the Sassanid motif of royalty.
In Shi'ism, this is expressed as the Sun (Muhammad the Light, Jesus the Angel, etc.) being under the shadow of the Lion ('Ali). Hence the intimate connection of Shi'ism and Persia.

(Fatima in Shi'ism is very obviously an incorporation of the Virgin Mary.)

Adoption of 'Ali by Muhammad = Incorporation of the power of the Lion by the Sun (In Spiritual Shi'ism Muhammad and 'Ali are two emanations of the Godhead)

Additionally, Hatra is from the Aramaic for HTR d'SHMSH: Hatra de Shamash, meaning Enclosure of the Sun God. Shamash in Arabic is Shams (=> 'Abd Shams). We also have Enclosure, the HTR, a walled off enclosure that is a sacred ground. Indeed the central walled temple is called an ENCLOSURE (something enclosed or walled off in Arabic is called a HARAM). The entire city itself is called the Beit Elaha, the House of God. Which is exactly the name of the Ka'aba in Islam.

The chief god of Hatra, Shamash, the Sun has a consort, as you have mentioned, and she is also called the Queen of Heaven (similar title to Mary in Catholic & Orthodox Christianity and Fatima in Shi'a Islam). They both have a son. He has three servant-goddesses, Allat, al-'Uzza and Manat; are these not the "daughters of Allah" of the satanic verses?
Hatra was also a major caravan centre. The king of Hatra was called MLK de 'RB, King of the Arabs.

I believe that the Mecca of Islam is a pastiche of many sacred sites common to the early Arab empire (since they were from a diverse background, with Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian, Manichean and Mesopotamian influences), but especially including Jerusalem and Hatra. Primary influences I feel in formative Islam are heterodox Jewish-Christian, Manichean and Hatrene.

We may consider the literary topoi, connecting
Mecca = The Tree of Life = The City of God = Abel
Medina = The Tree of Knowledge = The City of Men (Medina is also called Medinatul-'Ilm, the City of Knowledge) = Cain
FollowerOfMessiah
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Re: Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

Post by FollowerOfMessiah »

Should be noted that Muhammad in the Islamic tradition is a Banu Hashim = Banu HaShem = Bnei Hashem. This is a common name for angelic beings in Jewish Angelology, meaning Sons of God (recall the division of the nations in the Torah). Muhammad is an aspect of Jesus in some heterodox Jewish Christian sects.
His great great grandfather's name is Hashim (= HaSHEM) and his great grandmother the Bint Najjar was called Salma = Salome.
FollowerOfMessiah
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Re: Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

Post by FollowerOfMessiah »

Should be noted that Muhammad in the Islamic tradition is a Banu Hashim = Banu HaShem = Bnei Hashem. This is a common name for angelic beings in Jewish Angelology, meaning Sons of God (recall the division of the nations in the Torah). Muhammad is an aspect of Jesus in some heterodox Jewish Christian sects.
His great great grandfather's name is Hashim (= HaSHEM) and his great grandmother the Bint Najjar was called Salma = Salome.

Also note that Hatra means Enclosure and is also called the Beit Elaha, which is reminescent of the Masjid Al Haram containing the Ka'aba and the "House of God".
FollowerOfMessiah
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Re: Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

Post by FollowerOfMessiah »

Should be noted that Muhammad in the Islamic tradition is a Banu Hashim = Banu HaShem = Bnei Hashem. This is a common name for angelic beings in Jewish Angelology, meaning Sons of God (recall the division of the nations in the Torah). Muhammad is an aspect of Jesus in some heterodox Jewish Christian sects.
His great great grandfather's name is Hashim (= HaSHEM) and his great grandmother the Bint Najjar was called Salma = Salome.

Also note that Hatra means Enclosure in Aramaic and is also called the Beit Elaha, which is reminiscent of the Masjid Al Haram containing the Ka'aba and the "House of God". Hatra was also known as a major caravan city.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

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FollowerOfMessiah wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:27 pm Should be noted that Muhammad in the Islamic tradition is a Banu Hashim = Banu HaShem = Bnei Hashem. This is a common name for angelic beings in Jewish Angelology, meaning Sons of God (recall the division of the nations in the Torah). Muhammad is an aspect of Jesus in some heterodox Jewish Christian sects.
His great great grandfather's name is Hashim (= HaSHEM) and his great grandmother the Bint Najjar was called Salma = Salome.

Or again:
'Ali + Fatima + Husayn (I may also suggest-- Osiris/Isis/Horus, God/Mary/Jesus)
'Ali is called the Lion in Alawism; Abbas, the ancestor of the Abbassids, means Lion; (connections with the Lion of Judah, Persian dynastic royalty).
The Father-God + The Queen of Heaven + The Divine Son
If we combine the Lion motif with the Sun motif (Muhammad) we get
THE LION AND SUN which is the Sassanid motif of royalty.
In Shi'ism, this is expressed as the Sun (Muhammad the Light, Jesus the Angel, etc.) being under the shadow of the Lion ('Ali). Hence the intimate connection of Shi'ism and Persia.

(Fatima in Shi'ism is very obviously an incorporation of the Virgin Mary.)

Adoption of 'Ali by Muhammad = Incorporation of the power of the Lion by the Sun (In Spiritual Shi'ism Muhammad and 'Ali are two emanations of the Godhead)

Additionally, Hatra is from the Aramaic for HTR d'SHMSH: Hatra de Shamash, meaning Enclosure of the Sun God. Shamash in Arabic is Shams (=> 'Abd Shams). We also have Enclosure, the HTR, a walled off enclosure that is a sacred ground. Indeed the central walled temple is called an ENCLOSURE (something enclosed or walled off in Arabic is called a HARAM). The entire city itself is called the Beit Elaha, the House of God. Which is exactly the name of the Ka'aba in Islam.

The chief god of Hatra, Shamash, the Sun has a consort, as you have mentioned, and she is also called the Queen of Heaven (similar title to Mary in Catholic & Orthodox Christianity and Fatima in Shi'a Islam). They both have a son. He has three servant-goddesses, Allat, al-'Uzza and Manat; are these not the "daughters of Allah" of the satanic verses?
Hatra was also a major caravan centre. The king of Hatra was called MLK de 'RB, King of the Arabs.

I believe that the Mecca of Islam is a pastiche of many sacred sites common to the early Arab empire (since they were from a diverse background, with Jewish, Christian, Zoroastrian, Manichean and Mesopotamian influences), but especially including Jerusalem and Hatra. Primary influences I feel in formative Islam are heterodox Jewish-Christian, Manichean and Hatrene.

We may consider the literary topoi, connecting
Mecca = The Tree of Life = The City of God = Abel
Medina = The Tree of Knowledge = The City of Men (Medina is also called Medinatul-'Ilm, the City of Knowledge) = Cain
I went ahead and approved all your pending posts, FollowerOfMessiah. Also, you shouldn't need approval for future posts.

Welcome to the forum!
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

Post by yakovzutolmai »

FollowerOfMessiah wrote: Tue Aug 31, 2021 4:27 pm
Or again:
'Ali + Fatima + Husayn (I may also suggest-- Osiris/Isis/Horus, God/Mary/Jesus)
'Ali is called the Lion in Alawism; Abbas, the ancestor of the Abbassids, means Lion; (connections with the Lion of Judah, Persian dynastic royalty).
The Father-God + The Queen of Heaven + The Divine Son
If we combine the Lion motif with the Sun motif (Muhammad) we get
THE LION AND SUN which is the Sassanid motif of royalty.
In Shi'ism, this is expressed as the Sun (Muhammad the Light, Jesus the Angel, etc.) being under the shadow of the Lion ('Ali). Hence the intimate connection of Shi'ism and Persia.
Wow, that's so interesting.

I have been following the Kings of Edessa for their possible link to the royals of Hadyab. It is my opinion that Philip of the Seleucids was not from the main line of Seleucids, and that he was at least part Arab. I believe in Edessa his title was "Ma'nu" the one we know as Ma'nu II. That he also took up the name Ptolemy Menneus after being exiled from Damascus to Iturea to avoid angering Tigranes of Armenia.

This same Ptolemy married a Hasmonean princess, and I believe this is the connection to the house of Adiabene which becomes Jewish.

In the Jewish beliefs of the Elchasaites and Sabians, Simonian (and so forth) I believe they are identifying King Bazeus and Helena as incarnations of Christ and Sophia. Izates as the divine son.

I have sense that Aziz and Sampsiceramus had some kind of loyalty to Philip/Ptolemy. Perhaps oath-sworn and of a religious nature. I also think that Bazeus is "Joseph the Tekton" and this somehow highlights him as a master of certain divine mysteries.

What has always confused me are two elements:

1) Do the Jewish and Arab mysticisms intersect? Bazeus/Helena/Izates (Isa?) are capable of being the Arab divine triad. However, in Simonian/Elchasaite Judaism, this traid is compared to Adam Kadmon and a consort.

My theory is that Iturean/Osrhoenian mystics along with Samaritan mystics combined Jewish and Arab mystical systems in the CE 30s. This is the missing link for Christian origins. I also theorize that Jewish beliefs originated out of Canaanite systems that were at one time identical to the Assyrian system that became the Arab polytheism.

2) Is there a hidden Arab Empire of Al-Shams even from 150 BCE - 200 CE? I have the impression that Adiabene, Corduene, Mygdonia, Osrhoene, Coele-Syria and Iturea are considered a single domain over which the Arabs do recognize a legitimate king. The rise of this power corresponds to a rebuilding of Assyrian cities that later becomes Asoristan. I have wondered about the connection of Arabs and Assyrians.

I consider these to be the two keys to the puzzle.

Finally, in Osrhoene, the first king is called Aryu - lion. The next is Abdu, which I think may be Abdissares of Adiabene. Thus, Aryu is a mythical founder. Implying that God himself gave Abdissares the right to rule.

I am wondering how Abdissares may have founded a kingdom where even Azizus recognizes his heirs as King of Arabs, where the Hatrene monarchy is called King of Arabs.
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

Post by yakovzutolmai »

Also, by comparing the Osiris myth to that of Cain and Abel/Seth, which compares to Ishmael and Isaac, I have considered that the Ishmaelites of the ancient world might be the Lower Egyptians following the religion of Atum (Adam) at Memphis, and the Jacobite/Ishmaelite dichotomy may come from the Hyksos period (although the Hyksos were not necessarily Jacobites).

I have thought that perhaps Egypt exported the excess population of the Nile Delta to Syria (Homs, Damascus, Hama) and those whom we call "Arameans" may be ethnically Egyptian. Thus the Arab "Ishmaelites" of Syria are Aramean, and their religion originates from Egypt but has taken on the forms of the Neo-Assyrian period as well as their contact with Canaan.
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Re: Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

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Sorry for the repeat posts, I am new to the forum. Is it possible to delete the last two after the first one?

Thanks for the introduction!
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Peter Kirby
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Re: Maren And Barmaren; Hatrene Origins For Islam

Post by Peter Kirby »

FollowerOfMessiah wrote: Wed Sep 01, 2021 6:07 pm Sorry for the repeat posts, I am new to the forum. Is it possible to delete the last two after the first one?

Thanks for the introduction!
As a policy, I prefer not to edit or delete any posts. You can edit them down to a single character if you like.
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