There was neither a caliph nor a caliphate. Islam only exists since about 800 AD at the earliest. They were Syriac-Christian Arabs. They had Byzantine-style churches.Peter Kirby wrote:DuvDuv wrote:2) How could there have been an Islamic caliphate in Damascus under Muawiyya so soon after Muhammed had died?
Questions about Emergence of Islam
Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
None. There is evidence against it. There are early mosques in Libya that are not oriented towards Mecca. They were probably churches. Beyond North Africa, the "mosque" in Córdoba is not oriented towards Mecca.Peter Kirby wrote:DuvDuv wrote:3) What actual evidence exists supporting the idea of a massive Islamic (as opposed to Arab) conquest of North Africa??
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Roger Pearse
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Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
I don't honestly see why we don't accept the normal narrative of Moslem origins; a tough with a tendency to visions who worked up his own religion and state, which managed to outlast him and canonised him as a "glue" to hold the boys together, and then pointed them at the rich and weakened neighbours. Nothing in this seems at all improbable, and any other explanation is going to need some solid facts to even get off the ground.
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stephan happy huller
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Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
They do this with everything to do with religion. No surprise here. Only duvduv has a double standard with his own Jewish faith. Absolutely nothing is questioned there even though Ezra is by far the best example of religious re-writing in history.
Everyone loves the happy times
Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
http://en.qantara.de/content/interview- ... ific-title
Interview with Karl-Heinz Ohlig
Muhammad as a Christological Honorific Title
In his book "The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History," the theologian Karl-Heinz Ohlig has come to the conclusion that Islam was not originally conceived as an independent religion. Alfred Hackensberger has talked with the author
Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
No double standards at all........Simply an attempt at seeing the context in which a religion that clearly based itself on Judaism and its teachings emerged. Pretty simple at that.
I should add that references to the early conflict between traditional Judaism and Karaitic elements, i.e. David Ben Anan, under the Caliphate in the 8th century do not mention details of the Islamic religion at all. Of course we know that non-rabbinic Jewish elements were hanging around since the destruction of the Second Temple, but for purposes of adding to the discussion of the emergence of Islam, nothing specifically relating to the Islamic religion that we know about exists in those writings.
Furthermore, there is no empirical evidence of the actual existence of the Shiite sect at all until the emergence of the Safavvid dynasty following the rulership of Ismail I.
I should add that references to the early conflict between traditional Judaism and Karaitic elements, i.e. David Ben Anan, under the Caliphate in the 8th century do not mention details of the Islamic religion at all. Of course we know that non-rabbinic Jewish elements were hanging around since the destruction of the Second Temple, but for purposes of adding to the discussion of the emergence of Islam, nothing specifically relating to the Islamic religion that we know about exists in those writings.
Furthermore, there is no empirical evidence of the actual existence of the Shiite sect at all until the emergence of the Safavvid dynasty following the rulership of Ismail I.
stephan happy huller wrote:They do this with everything to do with religion. No surprise here. Only duvduv has a double standard with his own Jewish faith. Absolutely nothing is questioned there even though Ezra is by far the best example of religious re-writing in history.
Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
What "ghost" calls a mosque in Córdoba was the Wisigothic cathedral of this town before the invasion of the muslims. It was destroyed and a mosque was built on the ground of the cathedral. And after the Reconquista in 1236, it recovered its function of cathedral. There is still a mirhab showing the direction of Mecca Inside the cathedral.ghost wrote:None. There is evidence against it. There are early mosques in Libya that are not oriented towards Mecca. They were probably churches. Beyond North Africa, the "mosque" in Córdoba is not oriented towards Mecca.Peter Kirby wrote:DuvDuv wrote:3) What actual evidence exists supporting the idea of a massive Islamic (as opposed to Arab) conquest of North Africa??
Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
The talk between Ohlig and Hackensberger does not mention Gerd Rüdiger Puin, who is the specialist of Islam and arabic language in this book.ghost wrote:http://en.qantara.de/content/interview- ... ific-titleInterview with Karl-Heinz Ohlig
Muhammad as a Christological Honorific Title
In his book "The Hidden Origins of Islam: New Research into Its Early History," the theologian Karl-Heinz Ohlig has come to the conclusion that Islam was not originally conceived as an independent religion. Alfred Hackensberger has talked with the author
Karl-Heinz Ohlig is a German professor of Religious Studies and the History of Christianity at the University of Saarland, Germany.
Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
Petra Sijpesteijn, professor of Arabic language and culture at Leiden University, says that the egyptian papyri are especially important. “The papyri are in fact the only contemporary source for the first 200 years of Islamic history.”
Papyrus manuscripts have been found in their thousands in the sand and at ancient rubbish tips all over the Middle East but especially in Egypt. Dr Sijpesteijn explains that they are often difficult to read because they are partially destroyed, badly written out or in dialect. “But if you can read them, they offer a unique glimpse of ordinary life at the dawn of Islam.”
The study of Arabic papyri is in its infancy. Only a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of available manuscripts have been studied. As far as the work done so far is concerned, the Muslim faithful can set their minds at ease: Dr Sijpesteijn says the texts largely confirm the official Islamic version of events.
Dr Sijpesteijn distances herself from the small group of polemical colleagues, known as the ‘revisionists’, who assert that the Prophet Muhammad probably did not exist. They say the Arabic conquerors were actually a disorganised horde of Bedouins who gained control of half the known world more or less by chance. Islam is said to have been dreamt up 200 years later in Iraq.
“From the papyri, it appears that the Arab conquests were indeed carefully planned and organised and that the Arabs saw themselves as conquerors with a religious mission. They also appear to have held religious views and followed customs which contain important elements of the behaviour and beliefs of later Muslims.
Dr Sijpesteijn says for example that, shortly after Muhammad’s death, there is already mention of a pilgrimage (hajj) and a tax to collect money for the poor (zakat). She has also come across a papyrus text written around 725 which names both the prophet and Islam.
Even so, her discoveries form a potential threat to the image some modern Muslims have of their history. The papyri contradict the belief held by many of today’s Muslims that Muhammad delivered Islam as a sort of ready-made package. “It looks as though Islam in its first centuries developed a form gradually. There was an awful lot of discussion about precisely what it meant to be a Muslim.”
Papyrus manuscripts have been found in their thousands in the sand and at ancient rubbish tips all over the Middle East but especially in Egypt. Dr Sijpesteijn explains that they are often difficult to read because they are partially destroyed, badly written out or in dialect. “But if you can read them, they offer a unique glimpse of ordinary life at the dawn of Islam.”
The study of Arabic papyri is in its infancy. Only a fraction of the hundreds of thousands of available manuscripts have been studied. As far as the work done so far is concerned, the Muslim faithful can set their minds at ease: Dr Sijpesteijn says the texts largely confirm the official Islamic version of events.
Dr Sijpesteijn distances herself from the small group of polemical colleagues, known as the ‘revisionists’, who assert that the Prophet Muhammad probably did not exist. They say the Arabic conquerors were actually a disorganised horde of Bedouins who gained control of half the known world more or less by chance. Islam is said to have been dreamt up 200 years later in Iraq.
“From the papyri, it appears that the Arab conquests were indeed carefully planned and organised and that the Arabs saw themselves as conquerors with a religious mission. They also appear to have held religious views and followed customs which contain important elements of the behaviour and beliefs of later Muslims.
Dr Sijpesteijn says for example that, shortly after Muhammad’s death, there is already mention of a pilgrimage (hajj) and a tax to collect money for the poor (zakat). She has also come across a papyrus text written around 725 which names both the prophet and Islam.
Even so, her discoveries form a potential threat to the image some modern Muslims have of their history. The papyri contradict the belief held by many of today’s Muslims that Muhammad delivered Islam as a sort of ready-made package. “It looks as though Islam in its first centuries developed a form gradually. There was an awful lot of discussion about precisely what it meant to be a Muslim.”
Re: Questions about Emergence of Islam
Can anyone really expect that a fully developed Islamic polity existed and was strong enough to engage in a mass conquest when there is no actual evidence of this, or even of anecdotal information about such Muslims armed with military resources their Quran and doctrines and SO SOON after the alleged death of the Prophet??
On the other hand, if "conquest" means bands of invaders/visitors waltzing into a place that receives them, that does not constitute a conquest.
And it still does not explain the lack of information concerning the Rasullah himself and his life for 200 years that survived among the believers. Scraps and fragments from an Egyptian rubbish heap do not constitute a religious tradition.
On the other hand, that Islam was constituted upon the establishment of the Abbasid caliphate makes much more sense given the timeline of what came out not only among Muslims, but was found among Jews and Christians about Islam and Muslims thereafter.
Then there is the unexplored issue of the emergence of the Shia, which scholars assume to have happened more or less the way the Shia tell it, which is hardly objective at all, especially when their Sunni antagonists argue that there was no actual Shia sect before the Safavvids.
On the other hand, if "conquest" means bands of invaders/visitors waltzing into a place that receives them, that does not constitute a conquest.
And it still does not explain the lack of information concerning the Rasullah himself and his life for 200 years that survived among the believers. Scraps and fragments from an Egyptian rubbish heap do not constitute a religious tradition.
On the other hand, that Islam was constituted upon the establishment of the Abbasid caliphate makes much more sense given the timeline of what came out not only among Muslims, but was found among Jews and Christians about Islam and Muslims thereafter.
Then there is the unexplored issue of the emergence of the Shia, which scholars assume to have happened more or less the way the Shia tell it, which is hardly objective at all, especially when their Sunni antagonists argue that there was no actual Shia sect before the Safavvids.