dating the birth stories?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Ben,
According to Google Translate, Χρηστοῦ and Χριστοῦ are vocalized the same: christou
Do you agree?

Cordially, Bernard
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Ben C. Smith
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Ben C. Smith »

Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:00 pm to Ben,
According to Google Translate, Χρηστοῦ and Χριστοῦ are vocalized the same: christou
Do you agree?

Cordially, Bernard
Do you mean whether they are pronounced the same? I am not sure about modern Greek (which is what Google Translate is going to give you).

In ancient Greek, those two words could easily be confused, yes, though I am not sure exactly about the pronunciation issues.
Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller »

From Wisdom of Jesus Son of Sirach, Ch.39:
[16] "All things are the works of the Lord, for they are very good,
and whatever he commands will be done in his time."
[17] No one can say, "What is this?" "Why is that?"
for in God's time all things will be sought after.
At his word the waters stood in a heap,
and the reservoirs of water at the word of his mouth.
[18] At his command whatever pleases him is done,
and none can limit his saving power.

Again, the word is associated with Genesis 1 and that word seems actively involved in the creation.

Cordially, Bernard
cora
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by cora »

But it is not written the same. Isu Chrestos has been found in Paul's letters too, as from Tertullianus. That makes Paul and his pupil Marcion. That makes IMO 90 to 120 Paul and from 120 on Marcion: Letters plus gospel, all from Paul. I can prove this. Before Paul there was no religion, he invented it. How do I know that? Because I investigated back to the origin.

I reject totally your remarks about "opinion", "speculation" etc. and "educate yourself". Everything I say comes from years of investigation, and now I have found it I am not going to shut up. I took a look at your "evidence" and I was completely right. Your site is already called "the historical Jesus" which means you are going to prove the historical Jesus instead of researching something. And what is your evidence???? The BIBLE just like I said. The gospels, Paul, etc. This is really pathetic. Proving Jesus from the gospels. So where do they come from? And when? Even if written from 70 on they are no eye-witnesses. Why are they not in Aramaic but in educated greek? Why are they not older? And why do they first appear in 185, in the book of Irenaeus? Why did the canon open only in 200? You of course have not got a clue.
Let's place Mark in 70 or 80 as you do. Now I would like to hear YOUR evidence for that date. Which should be more than that everybody says it. This is the last time I react on you, until you have given me real evidence of Mark being there in 70. And the others before 100. You show some evidence.
Instead of your ridiculous bible proves bible exercise, for which nobody falls nowadays anymore.
Cora.
I see you also believe in the OT. I am long since finished with Jahweh, who is the god of the jews. In writing the OT (450 BC according to themselves) they decided to make Jahweh a creator-god. Because he wasn't. He was just a primitive god from a primitive people, as many other gods still around. The Ammonites had Moloch, and the Moabites had Chemosh. All primitive religions have ONE GOD.(I know a very interesting book about this). By writing it down they got stuck. There was no more change possible, so now they are the only large religion which is still primitive.
Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Cora,
How does anyone dare to come with an inscription that reads CHRESTOS, which is translated by some idiot with Christ???????
About η:
From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eta
During the time of post-classical Koiné Greek, the /ɛː/ sound represented by eta was raised and merged with several other formerly distinct vowels, a phenomenon called iotacism or itacism, after the new pronunciation of the letter name as ita instead of eta.

Itacism is continued into Modern Greek, where the letter name is pronounced [ˈita] and represents the sound /i/ (a close front unrounded vowel). It shares this function with several other letters (ι, υ) and digraphs (ει, οι), which are all pronounced alike. This phenomenon at large is called iotacism.

From https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iotacism
Iotacism (Greek: ιωτακισμός, iotakismos) or itacism is the process of vowel shift by which a number of vowels and diphthongs converged towards the pronunciation ('i') in post-classical Greek and Modern Greek. The term "iotacism" refers to the letter iota, the original sign for ('i'), with which these vowels came to merge. The alternative term itacism refers to the new pronunciation of the name of the letter eta as [ˈita] after the change.
...
some ancient manuscripts spelled words the way they sounded, such as the 4th-century Codex Sinaiticus, which sometimes substitutes a plain iota for the epsilon-iota digraph and sometimes does the reverse.

So, it looks that Χρηστοῦ and Χριστοῦ would be pronounced the same in the 4th century CE, even if the word for "Christ" is spelled in Greek differently.

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem »

The pronunciation of "χριστοῦ" meaning "Christ" and "χρηστός" meaning "the Good " are of little significance when the words are found multiple times in the Septuagint which was used by Christian writers. These apologetics writers should have known how to spell or write the name or title of their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in Greek.

The Greek Old Testament contains both words multiple times without any spelling errors.

The book of Psalms is evidence that both words were known and written for hundreds of years before stories of Jesus Christ.

Septuagint

Psalms 2. 2 παρέστησαν οἱ βασιλεῖς τῆς γῆς, καὶ οἱ ἄρχοντες συνήχθησαν ἐπὶ τὸ αὐτὸ κατὰ τοῦ Κυρίου καὶ κατὰ τοῦ χριστοῦ αὐτοῦ.

Psalms 2. 2 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers gathered themselves together, against the Lord, and against his Christ..

Septuagint

Psalms 19. 7 νῦν ἔγνων ὅτι ἔσωσε Κύριος τὸν χριστὸν αὐτοῦ..........

Psalms 19.7 Now I know that the Lord has saved his Christ:........

Septuagint

Psalms 33. 9-- γεύσασθε καὶ ἴδετε ὅτι χρηστὸς ὁ Κύριος· μακάριος ἀνήρ, ὃς ἐλπίζει ἐπ᾿ αὐτόν...

Psalms 33.9-- Taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man who hopes in him..

Septuagint

Psalms 105.1--- Αλληλούϊα. - ΕΞΟΜΟΛΟΓΕΙΣΘΕ τῷ Κυρίῳ, ὅτι χρηστός, ὅτι εἰς τὸν αἰῶνα τὸ ἔλεος αὐτοῦ.

Psalms 105.1--1 [Alleluia.] Give thanks to the Lord; for he is good: for his mercy [endures] for ever..

In the Septuagint the Lord God Creator is the Good One " χρηστός".

In the NT the Lord Jesus is the Christ "χριστὸν ".

What is most astonishing is that in earliest Codices of the NT itself there are no followers of Christ--no followers of χριστοῦ--no Christians.

In the Sinaiticus Codex, in Acts of the Apostles 11.26, 26.28 and 1 Peter 4.16 it is admitted that believers were not called followers of Christ--no Christians--no "χριστιανους" but followers of the Good One" χρηστιανους".

The very NT is evidence that there was no cult of Christians at least before c 70 CE.
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to hakeem,
in Acts of the Apostles 11.26, 26.28 and 1 Peter 4.16, it is admitted that believers were not called followers of Christ--no Christians--no "χριστιανους" but followers of the Good One" χρηστιανους".
But in Acts 11:26, I read Χριστιανούς
But in Acts 26:28, I read Χριστιανὸν
But in 1 Peter 4:16, I read Χριστιανός

Reference: https://www.blueletterbible.org/

Cordially, Bernard
hakeem
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by hakeem »

Bernard Muller wrote: Fri Mar 05, 2021 5:32 pm to hakeem,
in Acts of the Apostles 11.26, 26.28 and 1 Peter 4.16, it is admitted that believers were not called followers of Christ--no Christians--no "χριστιανους" but followers of the Good One" χρηστιανους".
But in Acts 11:26, I read Χριστιανούς
But in Acts 26:28, I read Χριστιανὸν
But in 1 Peter 4:16, I read Χριστιανός

Reference: https://www.blueletterbible.org/

Cordially, Bernard
The Blue letter Bible??? That Bible is about 1500 years late.

Please, look at the Codex Sinaiticus written in UNICAL and dated around the 4th century c 325 CE.

https://codexsinaiticus.org/en/

In Acts 11.26 of the Sinaiticus it clearly uses the UNICAL Greek word for χρηϲτιανουϲ" --followers of the GOOD ONE.

In Acts 26.28 of the Sinaiticus it clearly uses the UNICAL Greek word for χρηϲτιανὸν--follower of the GOOD ONE.

In 1 Peter 4.16 of the Sinaiticus it clearly uses the UNICAL Greek word for χρηϲτιανοϲ--follower of the GOOD ONE.

It simply cannot be an error that supposed Christians did not remember their own name three times.

And it makes obvious sense that there were no people called Christians [followers of Christ] since the Christ of the Jews did not ever come.
Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Hakeem,
The Blue letter Bible??? That Bible is about 1500 years late.
The Blue letter Bible is not a bible like the KJV or the NIV, but www.blueletterbible.org/ is a website providing the Greek for any verse in the NT, from both the Textus Receptus and Morphological GNT (that one I consult).
I commented on χρηϲτιανὸν (without the c) here posting.php?mode=reply&f=3&t=7690#pr119663

Cordially, Bernard
Bernard Muller
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Re: dating the birth stories?

Post by Bernard Muller »

to Cora,
Let's place Mark in 70 or 80 as you do. Now I would like to hear YOUR evidence for that date. Which should be more than that everybody says it. This is the last time I react on you, until you have given me real evidence of Mark being there in 70. And the others before 100. You show some evidence.
See http://historical-jesus.info/41.html for gMark
See http://historical-jesus.info/57.html for gMatthew
See http://historical-jesus.info/62.html for gLuke & gJohn

This is mostly from the internal evidence. The external evidence will cement these approximate datings. But that's for another day.

Cordially, Bernard
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