The Real Testimonium

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
John2
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by John2 »

While Biehler is inclined to see Rev. 16 as a prediction of the 66-70 CE war, I see it as post-dating the war and thus knowing of its outcome.

According to Josephus in War 4.11.5, Titus assembled the troops for the siege of Jerusalem at Caesarea, which is near Mount Carmel, a possible location of the mount referred to in the word Armageddon (from Har -or Mount of- Megiddo). since it's at the head of the Jezreel Valley, which is also called the Valley of Megiddo.

... Vespasian ...sent his son Titus, with a select part of his army, to destroy Jerusalem ... to Caesarea, having taken a resolution to gather all his other forces together at that place.

And in War 5.1.1, Josephus says that the sedition in Jerusalem split into three factions, which he calls "the effect of divine justice," since it contributed to the destruction of the city by the Romans.

... it so happened that the sedition at Jerusalem was revived, and parted into three factions, and that one faction fought against the other; which partition in such evil cases may be said to be a good thing, and the effect of divine justice. Now as to the attack the zealots made upon the people, and which I esteem the beginning of the city's destruction, it hath been already explained after an accurate manner; as also whence it arose, and to how great a mischief it was increased. But for the present sedition, one should not mistake if he called it a sedition begotten by another sedition, and to be like a wild beast grown mad, which, for want of food from abroad, fell now upon eating its own flesh.

Then in War 5.6.3 Josephus says the stones that were catapulted into Jerusalem weighed a talent, which is about a hundred pounds (cf. Rev. 16:21: "And great hailstones weighing almost a hundred pounds each rained down on them from above. And men cursed God for the plague of hail, because it was so horrendous").

Now the stones that were cast were of the weight of a talent, and were carried two furlongs and further. The blow they gave was no way to be sustained, not only by those that stood first in the way, but by those that were beyond them for a great space. As for the Jews, they at first watched the coming of the stone, for it was of a white color, and could therefore not only be perceived by the great noise it made, but could be seen also before it came by its brightness; accordingly the watchmen that sat upon the towers gave them notice when the engine was let go, and the stone came from it, and cried out aloud, in their own country language, THE STONE COMETH so those that were in its way stood off, and threw themselves down upon the ground; by which means, and by their thus guarding themselves, the stone fell down and did them no harm. But the Romans contrived how to prevent that by blacking the stone, who then could aim at them with success, when the stone was not discerned beforehand, as it had been till then; and so they destroyed many of them at one blow.

This all sounds like Rev. 16 to me, and my guess is that this could be because whoever wrote Revelation experienced the 66-70 CE war or knew people who had, or they got these details from Josephus or some other account of the war.
Last edited by John2 on Sat Jan 22, 2022 7:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.
John2
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by John2 »

And regarding the references to Rome being Babylon in the Sibylline Oracles, how certain can we be of their value? While books 4 and 5 (from which Peter's citations are given) are thought to be among the oldest, according to Wikipedia, "All the oracles seem to have undergone later revision, enrichment, and adaptation by editors and authors" down to the 6th century CE and were preserved by Christians. Perhaps then the references to Rome being Babylon are due to misinterpretations of Revelation or later development.
Last edited by John2 on Wed Jan 26, 2022 1:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by Peter Kirby »

It will be tedious to retread the same arguments. Most of what I've written in this thread on Babylon=Rome wasn't engaged with. The argument that there was any particular connection to the events as reported by Josephus is particularly weak and practically nonexistent. It's like saying that Josephus' text and Revelation were both written in Greek, therefore Revelation's Babylon is Jerusalem, because the description of anything draws upon well known analogies and metaphors familiar to people in a language.

There are many articles and books written on the subject. I will refer the interested reader there.
John2
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by John2 »

I'm interested in engaging with your points, starting with your use of the Sibylline Oracles. This is a new subject for me and it's taking me time to digest everything, and right now the Sibylline Oracles seem like they could be of questionable value.
John2
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by John2 »

And I asked if the 1260 days of the two witnesses in chapter 11 were concurrent with 42 days the holy city was trampled or happened after that, since it says (in translations) "they will" trample the holy city, not that it had happened. And my questions about Armageddon are because you hadn't addressed it. So I'm engaging with you as best and as quickly as I can and enjoying learning new things as I go.
andrewcriddle
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by andrewcriddle »

John2 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:58 pm ......................................

I don't know Greek, but from translations it appears to say that "they will" trample the holy city for 42 months, not that it has happened yet. And are the 1260 days that the two witnesses prophesy concurrent with these 42 months or do they happen after that? I suppose wearing sackcloth could be an indication of the latter, but could it also be because of what will happen to Jerusalem?
42 months is 1260 days with a 30 day month. The two periods are presumably the same.

Andrew Criddle
John2
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by John2 »

andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Jan 23, 2022 9:35 am
John2 wrote: Fri Jan 21, 2022 4:58 pm ......................................

I don't know Greek, but from translations it appears to say that "they will" trample the holy city for 42 months, not that it has happened yet. And are the 1260 days that the two witnesses prophesy concurrent with these 42 months or do they happen after that? I suppose wearing sackcloth could be an indication of the latter, but could it also be because of what will happen to Jerusalem?
42 months is 1260 days with a 30 day month. The two periods are presumably the same.

Andrew Criddle

If this is the case then the destruction of Jerusalem didn't happen until the two witnesses "finished their testimony," and the "great city" in which they were killed would then be Jerusalem.

When the two witnesses have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will wage war with them, and will overpower and kill them. Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city—figuratively called Sodom and Egypt—where their Lord was also crucified.

I've been sorting through the various theories about the identity of the great city and I linked to Biehler's because it seems clear, concise and just makes sense to me.

There are other points that Peter addressed that I need to get to, but thus far I'm leaning strongly towards the great city in chapters 11 and 16 being Jerusalem. In the latter case, it's not necessary for the author of Revelation to have used Josephus, since they could have experienced the 66-70 CE war firsthand or known other people who did. It just seems too coincidental to me that the Romans assembled their troops for the siege of Jerusalem near a mountain that is arguably Armageddon/Har-Megiddo and that Jerusalem was split into three factions and pelted with stones that weighed about a hundred pounds like in Rev. 16.

And the 42 months/1260 days in chapter 11 is about the same amount of time as the 66-70 CE war that culminated with the destruction of Jerusalem (i.e., three and a half years).
John2
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Re: The Real Testimonium

Post by John2 »

As for why the author of Revelation "has it out for the city" (as Peter put it), it makes sense to me that this could be because of what Jesus says about Jerusalem in Mt. 23:29-39 (as per Biehler):

Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous. And you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our fathers, we would not have been partners with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.’ So you testify against yourselves that you are the sons of those who murdered the prophets. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your fathers. You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape the sentence of hell?

Because of this, I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and others you will flog in your synagogues and persecute in town after town. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. Truly I tell you, all these things will come upon this generation.

O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those sent to her
, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling! Look, your house is left to you desolate. For I tell you that you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

This in keeping with Rev. 17:6 and 6:9-11:

I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and witnesses for Jesus.

... I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”

Then each of them was given a white robe and told to rest a little while longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers, were killed, just as they had been killed.

Which brings us to the identity of the woman/prostitute in Rev. 17. As Peter wrote:

... details such as the cosmopolitan inhabitants there, the seven hills (for which Rome was famous), the fornication with client kingdoms, and the name "Babylon" itself represented as a "mystery" (not literally) that is to be understood as a reference to the one that sacked Jerusalem.

This is where I think there could be a blend of Rome and Jerusalem, in the sense that the woman/prostitute could be Jerusalem while the "beast" and the seven hills represent Rome, because the woman is said to be sitting on the beast ("17:3: "I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast that was covered with blasphemous names and had seven heads and ten horns"). If the woman and the beast are Rome, how could the woman be sitting on herself? But as Biehler notes, the Jewish authorities were in cahoots with Rome (e.g., Jn. 19:25: "'We have no king but Caesar,' replied the chief priests"). And regarding the woman/prostitute, Biehler writes:

Anyone familiar with the Old Testament knows ... that ... over and over again God accused Jerusalem of whoredom. “See how the faithful city (Jerusalem) has become a harlot…” (Isa. 1:21) “ …you have played the harlot, forsaking your God. You have loved the harlot’s wages on every threshing floor.” (Hosea 9:1)



And the woman is dressed similar to the high priests and wears a message on her forehead like high priests did.

The woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls. She held in her hand a golden cup full of abominations and the impurities of her sexual immorality. And on her forehead a mysterious name was written: Babylon the Great, the mother of prostitutes and of the abominations of the earth.

Cf. Ex. 28:4-38:

They are to make these holy garments for your brother Aaron and his sons, so that they may serve Me as priests. They shall use gold, along with blue, purple, and scarlet yarn, and fine linen ...

You are also to make a breastpiece of judgment ... Construct it with gold, with blue, purple, and scarlet yarn, and with finely spun linen ... And mount on it a setting of gemstones, four rows of stones ...

You are to make a plate of pure gold and engrave on it as on a seal: Holy to the Lord.

Fasten to it a blue cord to mount it on the turban; it shall be on the front of the turban. And it will be worn on Aaron’s forehead, so that he may bear the iniquity of the holy things that the sons of Israel consecrate with regard to all their holy gifts. It shall always be on his forehead, so that they may be acceptable before the Lord.
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