The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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MrMacSon
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Antiquities 1.303-6

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Antiquites 1.303-6

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[303] Ἦσαν δ᾽ ἑκατέραις θεραπαινίδες τοῦ πατρὸς δόντος Ζελφὰ μὲν Λείας Ῥαχήλας δὲ Βάλλα, δοῦλαι μὲν οὐδαμῶς ὑποτεταγμέναι δέ. καὶ τῆς Λείας ἥπτετο δεινῶς ὁ πρὸς τὴν ἀδελφὴν ἔρως τοῦ ἀνδρὸς προσεδόκα τε παίδων γενομένων ἔσεσθαι τιμία ἱκέτευέ τε τὸν θεὸν διηνεκῶς.

[304] καὶ γενομένου παιδὸς ἄρρενος καὶ διὰ τοῦτο πρὸς αὐτὴν ἐπεστραμμένου τοῦ ἀνδρὸς Ῥούβηλον ὀνομάζει τὸν υἱόν, διότι κατ᾽ ἔλεον αὐτῇ τοῦ θεοῦ γένοιτο: τοῦτο γὰρ σημαίνει τὸ ὄνομα. τεκνοῦνται δὲ αὐτοῖς καὶ τρεῖς ἕτεροι μετὰ χρόνον: Σεμεών, ἀποσημαίνει δὲ τὸ ὄνομα τὸ ἐπήκοον αὐτῇ τὸν θεὸν γεγονέναι, εἶτα Λευίς, κοινωνίας οἷον βεβαιωτής, μεθ᾽ ὃν Ἰούδας, εὐχαριστίαν τοῦτο δηλοῖ.

[305] Ῥαχήλα δὲ φοβουμένη, μὴ διὰ τὴν εὐτεκνίαν τῆς ἀδελφῆς ἥττονος παρὰ τἀνδρὸς μοίρας τυγχάνῃ, παρακατακλίνει τῷ Ἰακώβῳ τὴν αὑτῆς θεραπαινίδα Βάλλαν. ἐγένοντο δὲ παιδίον ἐξ αὐτῆς Δάν, θεόκριτον ἄν τινες εἴποιεν κατὰ τὴν Ἑλλήνων γλῶτταν: καὶ μετ᾽ αὐτὸν Νεφθάλεις, μηχανητὸς οἷον, διὰ τὸ ἀντιτεχνάσασθαι πρὸς τὴν εὐτεκνίαν τῆς ἀδελφῆς.

[306] τὸ δ᾽ αὐτὸ καὶ Λεία ποιεῖ πρὸς τὸ τῆς ἀδελφῆς ἔργον ἀντιτεχνασαμένη: παρακατακλίνει γὰρ τὴν αὑτῆς θεράπαιναν γίνεταί τε καὶ ἐκ τῆς Ζελφῆς υἱὸς Γάδας, τυχαῖον ἄν τις καλέσειεν αὐτόν, καὶ μετ᾽ αὐτὸν Ἄσηρος, μακαριστὴς λέγοιτ᾽ ἂν ἐξ ὧν πρὸς εὔκλειαν προσελάμβανε.

[307] Ῥουβήλου δὲ τοῦ πρεσβυτάτου τῶν υἱῶν Λείας μανδραγόρου μῆλα κομίζοντος τῇ μητρί, Ῥαχήλα θεασαμένη παρακαλεῖ μεταδοῦναι δι᾽ ἐπιθυμίας τοῦ βρώματος γενομένη. τῆς δ᾽ οὐ πειθομένης, ἀρκεῖσθαι δ᾽ αὐτὴν ἀξιούσης, ὅτι τῆς τιμῆς αὐτὴν ἀφέλοιτο τῆς παρὰ τοῦ ἀνδρός, Ῥαχήλα πεπαίνουσα τὸν θυμὸν τῆς ἀδελφῆς παραχωρήσειν αὐτῇ τἀνδρὸς ἔλεγε κοιμησομένου παρ᾽ αὐτῇ κατ᾽ ἐκείνην τὴν ἑσπέραν.

[308] τῆς δὲ προσιεμένης τὴν χάριν Ἰάκωβος συγκαθεύδει τῇ Λείᾳ Ῥαχήλᾳ χαριζόμενος. πάλιν οὖν γίνονται παῖδες αὐτῇ, Ἰσσαχάρης μὲν σημαίνων τὸν ἐκ μισθοῦ γενόμενον, Ζαβουλὼν δὲ ἠνεχυρασμένον εὐνοίᾳ τῇ πρὸς αὐτήν, θυγάτηρ δὲ Δεῖνα. χρόνοις δ᾽ ὕστερον καὶ Ῥαχήλᾳ γίνεται Ἰώσηπος υἱός: προσθήκην γενησομένου τινὸς δηλοῖ.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.01.0145
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[303] Now each of these had handmaids, by their father's donation. Zilpha was handmaid to Lea, and Bilha to Rachel; by no means slaves, but however subject to their mistresses. Now Lea was sorely troubled at her husband's love to her sister; and she expected she should be better esteemed if she bare him children: so she entreated God perpetually;

[304] and when she had borne a son, and her husband was on that account better reconciled to her, she named her son Reubel, because God had had mercy upon her, in giving her a son, for that is the signification of this name. After some time she bare three more sons; Simeon, which name signifies that God had hearkened to her prayer. Then she bare Levi, the confirmer of their friendship. After him was born Judah, which denotes thanksgiving.

[305] But Rachel, fearing lest the fruitfulness of her sister should make herself enjoy a lesser share of Jacob's affections, put to bed to him her handmaid Bilha; by whom Jacob had Dan: one may interpret that name into the Greek tongue, a divine judgment. And after him Nephthalim, as it were, unconquerable in stratagems, since Rachel tried to conquer the fruitfulness of her sister by this stratagem. Accordingly, Lea took the same method, and used a counter-stratagem to that of her sister;

for she put to bed to him her own handmaid. Jacob therefore had by Zilpha a son, whose name was Gad, which may be interpreted fortune; and after him Asher, which may be called a happy man, because he added glory to Lea.

Now Reubel, the eldest son of Lea, brought apples of mandrakes 2 to his mother. When Rachel saw them, she desired that she would give her the apples, for she longed to eat them; but when she refused, and bid her be content that she had deprived her of the benevolence she ought to have had from her husband, Rachel, in order to mitigate her sister's anger, said she would yield her husband to her; and he should lie with her that evening.

She accepted of the favor, and Jacob slept with Lea, by the favor of Rachel. She bare then these sons: Issachar, denoting one born by hire: and Zabulon, one born as a pledge of benevolence towards her; and a daughter, Dina. After some time Rachel had a son, named Joseph, which signified there should be another added to him.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... ection%3D7

γένοιτο/génoito = third-person singular aorist middle optative of γίγνομαι (gígnomai) https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%CE%B3%C ... F%84%CE%BF
Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Jun 23, 2022 12:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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genomenon and gernomenoi, forms of ginomai, in Genesis

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(the English in the following is mostly based on the YLT)

Genesis 21:3

καὶ ἐκάλεσεν Ἀβραὰμ τὸ ὄνομα τοῦ υἱοῦ αὐτοῦ τοῦ γενομένου αὐτῷ, ὃν ἔτεκεν αὐτῷ Σάρρα, Ἰσαάκ·And Abraham calleth the name of his son who is born to him, brought forth by Sarah, Isaac·

Genesis 46.27a

υἱοὶ δὲ Ἰωσὴφ οἱ γενόμενοι αὐτῷ ἐν γῇ Αἰγύπτῳ ψυχαὶ ἐννέα.[the] sons of Joseph [who] have been born to him in Egypt [are] two persons.

Genesis 48.5

νῦν οὖν οἱ δύο υἱοί σου οἱ γενόμενοί σοι ἐν Αἰγύπτῳ πρὸ τοῦ με ἐλθεῖν εἰς Αἴγυπτον πρὸς σὲ ἐμοί εἰσιν, Ἐφράιμ καὶ Μανασσή, ὡς Ῥουβὴν καὶ Συμεὼν ἔσονταί μοι·And now, thy two sons, who are born to thee in the land of Egypt, before my coming unto thee to Egypt, mine they [are]; Ephraim and Manasseh, as Reuben and Simeon they are mine

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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:33 am
Either way, Tertullian shows that he reads Paul as meaning "born"

What do you think Tertullian is saying?


20 "... he says 'made' in preference to 'born'. ... by saying 'made' he has both set his seal on 'The Word was made flesh' [John 1:14], and has asserted the verity of the flesh made of the Virgin ... flesh not born of seed has proceeded forth from flesh <born of seed> ... the virgin shall conceive in the womb. Conceive what? Evidently not a man's seed, but the Word of God ... "

De Carne Christi / On the Flesh of Christ : https://www.tertullian.org/articles/eva ... _04eng.htm


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MrMacSon
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

Antiquities 7.154

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[154] Τῷ δ᾽ ἐκ τῆς Οὐρία γυναικὸς γενομένῳ παιδὶ Δαυίδῃ νόσον ἐνσκήπτει χαλεπὴν τὸ θεῖον, ἐφ᾽ ᾗ δυσφορῶν ὁ βασιλεὺς τροφὴν μὲν ἐφ᾽ ἡμέρας ἑπτὰ καίτοι γε ἀναγκαζόντων τῶν οἰκείων οὐ προσηνέγκατο, μέλαιναν δὲ περιθέμενος ἐσθῆτα πεσὼν ἐπὶ σάκκου κατὰ γῆς ἔκειτο τὸν θεὸν ἱκετεύων ὑπὲρ τῆς τοῦ παιδὸς σωτηρίας: σφόδρα γὰρ ἔστεργεν αὐτοῦ τὴν μητέρα.


[155] τῇ δ᾽ ἑβδόμῃ τῶν ἡμερῶν τελευτήσαντος τοῦ παιδὸς οὐκ ἐτόλμων τῷ βασιλεῖ τοῦτο μηνύειν οἱ θεράποντες λογιζόμενοι, μὴ γνοὺς ἔτι μᾶλλον ἀπόσχηται καὶ τροφῆς καὶ τῆς ἄλλης ἐπιμελείας ὡς ἂν ἐπὶ ποθεινοῦ τέκνου τετελευτηκότος, ὅτε καὶ νοσοῦντος οὕτως ὑπὸ τῆς λύπης ἑαυτὸν ἐκάκου.

[156] ταραττομένων δ᾽ αἰσθόμενος τῶν οἰκετῶν ὁ βασιλεὺς καὶ ταῦτα πασχόντων, ἃ μάλιστα συγκρύψαι τι θέλουσι συμβαίνει, συνεὶς ὅτι τέθνηκεν ὁ παῖς προσφωνήσας ἕνα τῶν οἰκετῶν καὶ μαθὼν τἀληθὲς ἀνίσταται καὶ λουσάμενος καὶ λαβὼν ἐσθῆτα λευκὴν εἰς τὴν σκηνὴν τοῦ θεοῦ παραγίνεται,


[157] καὶ κελεύσας δεῖπνον αὑτῷ παραθεῖναι πολλὴν ἐπὶ τῷ παραλόγῳ τοῖς τε συγγενέσι καὶ τοῖς οἰκέταις ἔκπληξιν παρεῖχεν, ὅτι μηδὲν τούτων ἐπὶ νοσοῦντι τῷ παιδὶ ποιήσας πάνθ᾽ ὁμοῦ τετελευτηκότος ἔπραττε. τήν τε αἰτίαν, δεηθέντες ἐπιτρέψαι πρῶτον αὐτοῖς πυθέσθαι, παρεκάλουν εἰπεῖν τῶν γεγενημένων.



[158] ὁ δὲ ἀμαθεῖς εἰπὼν αὐτοὺς ἐδίδασκεν, ὡς ἔτι μὲν ζῶντος τοῦ παιδὸς ἔχων ἐλπίδα σωτηρίας αὐτοῦ δεόντως πάντ᾽ ἐποίει τὸν θεὸν ἡγούμενος τούτοις εὐμενῆ καταστήσειν, ἀποθανόντος δ᾽ οὐκέτι χρείαν εἶναι λύπης ματαίας. ταῦτ᾽ εἰπόντος ἐπῄνεσαν τὴν σοφίαν καὶ τὴν διάνοιαν τοῦ βασιλέως. συνελθὼν δὲ τῇ γυναικὶ Βεεθσαβῇ ἔγκυον αὐτὴν ἐποίησε, καὶ γεννησαμένης ἄρρεν παιδίον Σολόμωνα τοῦτον προσηγόρευσεν, οὕτως Νάθα τοῦ προφήτου κελεύσαντος.

http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... 99.01.0145

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[154] However, God sent a dangerous distemper upon the child that was born to David of the wife of Uriah, at which the king was troubled, and did not take any food for seven days, although his servants almost forced him to take it; but he clothed himself in a black garment, and fell down, and lay upon the ground in sackcloth, entrusting God for the recovery of the child, for he vehemently loved the child's mother;

but when, on the seventh day, the child was dead, the king's servants durst not tell him of it, as supposing that when he knew it, he would still less admit of food, and other care of himself, by reason of his grief at the death of his son, since when the child was only sick, he so greatly afflicted himself, and grieved for him:

but when the king perceived that his servants were in disorder, and seemed to be affected, as those who are very desirous to conceal something, he understood that the child was dead; and when he had called one of his servants to him, and discovered that so it was, he arose up and washed himself, and took a white garment, and came into the tabernacle of God.

He also commanded them to set supper before him, and thereby greatly surprised his kindred and servants, while he did nothing of this when the child was sick, but did it all when he was dead. Whereupon having first begged leave to ask him a question, they besought him to tell them the reason of this his conduct; he then called them unskillful people, and instructed them how he had hopes of the recovery of the child while it was alive,

and accordingly did all that was proper for him to do, as thinking by such means to render God propitious to him; but that when the child was dead, there was no longer any occasion for grief, which was then to no purpose. When he had said this, they commended the king's wisdom and understanding. He then went in unto Bathsheba his wife, and she conceived and bare/begat a son; and by the command of Nathan the prophet called his name Solomon.

https://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/te ... ection%3D4



γεγενημένων / γίγνομαι / come into a new state of being / born

γεγενημένος / gegenēménos m (feminine γεγενημένη, neuter γεγενημένον); first/second declension · perfect mediopassive participle of γίγνομαι (gígnomai)

γεννησαμένης = from γεννa/genna / gennao, the word more specific for birth
Last edited by MrMacSon on Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:50 am, edited 2 times in total.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 1:10 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Tue Jun 14, 2022 2:33 am
Either way, Tertullian shows that he reads Paul as meaning "born"

What do you think Tertullian is saying?


20 "... he says 'made' in preference to 'born'. ... by saying 'made' he has both set his seal on 'The Word was made flesh' [John 1:14], and has asserted the verity of the flesh made of the Virgin ... flesh not born of seed has proceeded forth from flesh <born of seed> ... the virgin shall conceive in the womb. Conceive what? Evidently not a man's seed, but the Word of God ... "

De Carne Christi / On the Flesh of Christ : https://www.tertullian.org/articles/eva ... _04eng.htm

Earlier you wrote that I "have to contend with Tertullian". What are the specific implications of Paul's use of "ginomai" as meaning 'born' if Tertullian is correct, in your view? Are there any that I have to contend with?
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Jun 23, 2022 2:27 am What are the specific implications of Paul's use of "ginomai" as meaning 'born' if Tertullian is correct, in your view?
edited
Paul The NT uses gennao for born or birth 97 times according to S.P. Laurie. As Lauries says, "The fact that Paul chose [to use genomenos or a similar form of] ginomai [in Romans 1 and Galatians 4:4] is evidence that he intended some other meaning."

Laurie and Bart Ehrman note early copyists were changing ginomai to gennao because some contemporaries were using ginomai to prove that Jesus had come spiritually and not materially ...

So, to answer your question, it's very unlikely Paul used ginomai as meaning physically, humanly born.

Moreover, Paul never refers to Jesus parents or where he was born or under what circumstances. AFAIK, Paul never makes a definite statement confirming or even indicative of Jesus' human existence.
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Re: Philippians 2:7 and 2:8b

Post by MrMacSon »

Paul uses genomenos in the Philippians Hymn which some have noted is similar in some ways to the start of Romans 1

Philippians 2:7

morphēn doulou labōn,
en homoiōmati anthrōpōn genomenos
μορφὴν δούλου λαβών,
ἐν ὁμοιώματ ἀνθρώπων γενόμενος
having taken form [as] a servant,having been made in [the] likeness of men

(or, having come[as a servant]?)


Philippians 2:8b

genomenos
hypēkoosmechrithanatou,thanatou de staurou
γενόμενος
ὑπήκοος
μέχρι
θανάτου,θανάτου δὲ σταυροῦ
having becomeobedient
unto
death,
death of/by(?) stauros

(or, having been made [obedient unto death]?)


most of Philippians 2:511:


Christ Jesus, who, existing in the form of God...emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, being made in the likeness of men and, being discovered as a man in outward form, humbled himself, becoming obedient to the point of death, a death of a cross. For this God also highly exalted him, and granted him the name that is above all names, so that in the name of Jesus every knee should bend, of those in heaven and those on earth and those under the earth, and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, for the glory of God the Father


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Re: 1 Cor 15.37 in context

Post by MrMacSon »

1 Cor 15:37 via https://biblehub.com/interlinear/1_corinthians/15.htm

kai
ho
speiresis
ou
tosōmatogenēsomenon,speiresisallagymnonkokkon
καὶ
σπείρεις
οὐ
τὸσῶματὸγενησόμενον,σπείρειςἀλλὰγυμνὸνκόκκον
Andwhatyou sow[is] notthebodythatwill be [made],you sow
but
a bare
grain


Paul is saying that in the context of the body of the raised/resurrected dead : 1 Cor 15:35ff, which starts


35 someone will ask, “How are the dead raised? With what kind of body will they come?” 36 How foolish! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.



1 Cor 15:35ff includes

1 Cor 15:4547


45 So it is written: “The first man Adam became a living being” [Gen 2.7]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit. 46 The spiritual did not come first, but the natural and, after that, the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven


and 1 Cor 15:49

καθὼςἐφορέσαμεν τὴν εἰκόνα
τοῦ
χοϊκοῦ,φορέσομεν καὶ τὴν εἰκόνα τοῦ ἐπουρανίου
as
we have bornetheimageof theearthly,we shall bear also the image of the heavenly


It's a selling point
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by MrMacSon »

also 1 Cor 15:54

τότε
γενήσεται
λόγος
thenwill come to passtheWord
tote
genēsetai
hoLogos

Chris Hansen
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Re: The Seed in Romans 1:3 and Elsewhere

Post by Chris Hansen »

So firstly...

Paul does not use gennao for "birth" 97 times. Laurie appears to have just consulted a Strong's Concordance and mistaken the total number of occurrences in the entire New Testament for Paul. The entirety of the New Testament uses it 97 times, most of the time in the Gospels (https://biblehub.com/greek/1080.htm). Like if Laurie legit thinks Paul used gennao 97 times, then he is smoking something that I would love to get a puff of.

Paul only uses gennao on a few occasions: Rom. 9:11 (birth of twins), 1 Cor. 4:15 (where it is used semantically as "I became your father" similar to uses of ginomai, again semantic overlap), three times in Galatians (4:23, 4:24, and 4:29), and once in Philemon (1:10).

Only on four occasions does this talk of actual birth. 1 Cor. 4:15 is semantic "I became [gennao] your father" while Philemon 1:10 is "I appeal to you my child, Onesimus, whose father I became [gennao] while I was in chains."

Further Philippians 2:7 can easily be read as "born in the likeness" as well, as I discussed in my paper.

Which means in total he only uses gennao for "born" four times, and uses ginomai probably for birth three times... indicating that they were interchangeable for birthing language. So your entire case is based on... four instances of gennao in total, contra three instances of ginomai, all of which are easily (and best) read as "born", which is how it was used in similar circumstances by other Jewish and Greco-Roman authors.

That much later manuscripts (much later) changed this to gennao at best only reflects the climate of later centuries when Docetic concerns were around, and does not reflect back on Paul's letters, nor should we be interpreting them in light of alterations 100+ years down the line. That is like Carrier trying to validate his cosmic sperm bank thesis by citing the School of the Rashba... which has over 1000 years difference.
Last edited by Chris Hansen on Thu Jun 23, 2022 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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