Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

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Giuseppe
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by Giuseppe »

In short, "Simon Magus" represented the Samaritan failed attempt to reduce the Jesus of the Christians to the historical Samaritan Impostor crucified by Pilate.

It failed because the Christians of Judea reiterated that Jesus was davidic, not the Samaritan Son of Joseph. 'Joseph' was only the name of the his putative father, and alas!, Joseph himself was davidic. Take that, Simonians! How can you say now that Jesus is a Samaritan, if his father Joseph was not the biblical Joseph but the mere davidic Joseph?

in one thing the Simonians succeed: the name of Pilate, originally referred to the Roman killer of a rival Christ (= the Simonian/Samaritan Christ), now was linked with the Christian Jesus.

Forever.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:33 pmIn the epistle of St. Ignatius Ad Trallianos (§ 11), Simon Magus is called "the first-born Son of the Devil". Accordingly, Ignatius knew Simon Magus as basic icon of docetism.
That's from the longer recension of the letter, which probably dates from the Fourth Century CE. "Simon" doesn't appear in the shorter recension, though "Pilate" does.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

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And this?

If anyone preaches the one God of the law and the prophets, but denies Christ to be the Son of God, he is a liar, even as also is his father the devil,(10) and is a Jew falsely so called, being possessed of(11) mere carnal circumcision. If any one confesses Christ Jesus the Lord, but denies the God of the law and of the prophets, saying that the Father of Christ is not the Maker of heaven and earth, he has not continued in the truth any more than his father the devil,(10) and is a disciple of Simon Magus, not of the Holy Spirit.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture ... fm?id=3836
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GakuseiDon
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

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Giuseppe wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 8:46 pm And this?

If anyone preaches the one God of the law and the prophets, but denies Christ to be the Son of God, he is a liar, even as also is his father the devil,(10) and is a Jew falsely so called, being possessed of(11) mere carnal circumcision. If any one confesses Christ Jesus the Lord, but denies the God of the law and of the prophets, saying that the Father of Christ is not the Maker of heaven and earth, he has not continued in the truth any more than his father the devil,(10) and is a disciple of Simon Magus, not of the Holy Spirit.

https://www.catholicculture.org/culture ... fm?id=3836
Yes, that's from the longer recension as well, so probably Fourth Century CE. The shorter recension doesn't mention Simon Magus. (Some letters published of Ignatius' writings only contain the shorter recension. But others contain both (1) the shorter recension and then (2) the longer recension in the paragraph straight after.)
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MrMacSon
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

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I think a student of Markus Vinzent is or has been doing some research on the Ignatius letters and their recensions
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MrMacSon
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

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the First of Two videos
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MrMacSon
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

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The Second of Two
yakovzutolmai
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

Post by yakovzutolmai »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed Sep 21, 2022 6:33 pm As reaction, Ignatius would have said the exact contrary: Jesus was real, i.e. he wasn't Simon, and Jesus was crucified really by Pilate, so taking Pilate from the Samaritan source represented by the his opponents.


The reader has to persuade himself/herself that my case is virtually stronger once we realize that Ignatius mentioned Simon Magus.

The events of 33-38 are the most important and mysterious. Philo's embassy indicates FOUR kingly sons of Herod which is not corroborated anywhere else but can be inferred. I do not believe John the Baptist, historical or not, was part of the political situation involving Antipas. I think these forgotten other sons were more important. We also know very little about the events of 4 BC and 6 AD which each involve some rebel named "Judas the Galilean" although with two different epithets. I suspect the missing details about those two rebellions inform the aftermath of Archileus's downfall, and frame the political environment of these lightly mentioned sons of Herod leading into Antipas's demise. It took the conveniently timed death of Tiberius to resolve the entire situation.

The issue with Herod's sons, in my opinion, relates to missing information about their mothers. I have speculated much on this, but I suspect the possibility of connections to both Egypt and Assyria. You can see how there's a complete narrative here which has been lifted from Josephus.

The Samaritan prophet is the culmination of these events, although it seems in tangent. Yes, he's important, and yes, Simon Magus is remembered prominently as Samaritan. Though we strain to understand exactly who the Samaritans are vis-a-viz the Judeans.

I have argued that Simon Magus is a post-Jamesian reclamation of Simon Boethus. That Simon Boethus was the Oniade High Priest of the Egyptian Jewish temple, and that Herod put him in power to get access to that temple's treasury. The Egyptian temple was built in reaction to a schism between Jerusalem and Egypt in the reign of Ptolemy IV. The Talmud doesn't reject the Boethusians, but it does subtly question their mastery of law and tradition.

I have thought the Boethusian High Priests brought with them Egyptian theology, where the High Priest (an office which Simon Boethus filled for almost 20 years) is to Judea as Pharaoh is to Egypt. The pillar. The bearer of Ma'at. The world-god who mediates between heaven and Earth.

So, via Egyptian theology, the Judeo-Egyptian High Priest is like a Pharaoh of Samaria. I suspect this is the Samaritan prophet. Simon Cantheras whose family was ejected from the High Priesthood due to the politics surrounding the fall of Archileus due to the rebellion of Judas of Gamala. The Judeo-Egyptian theology is a legitimate counter-pole to Jerusalem's tradition, an umbrella also for regional Semites. For example, Semitic solar calendar vs. Persian lunar calendar.

Later there is Theudas, James and Simon, and the Jewish War. After Christianity forms and its sects go one way, Simon is reclaimed as Simon Magus. Magus as in Egyptian magic. Simonianism is easily explained as a vague memory of this Judeo-Egyptian High Priest Simon I have proposed.

There are 30 years from 6 AD to 36 in Eastern Galilee, the lands of Damascus, where the Egyptian theology mixes with local Syrian Semitic folk traditions. "Samaritan" AKA folk Israelite traditions that oppose Jerusalem. I would see the Samaritan Taheb of 36 to be a product of this. Linking Simonianism to this event.

But, to your point, I would blame Mark for linking Jesus and Pilate. What you are describing is Ignatius linking Magus to Jesus inadvertently.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

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yakovzutolmai wrote: Thu Sep 22, 2022 10:00 pm But, to your point, I would blame Mark for linking Jesus and Pilate. What you are describing is Ignatius linking Magus to Jesus inadvertently.
in Mark there is only the fact that Peter is called "Simon Peter" as trace of anti-simonianism, therefore it would be better to advance, as argument for my thesis, that Ignatius mentioned Simon Magus.

I should find in all his epistles if there are further occurrences of the Magus or his followers of the last hour.
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Giuseppe
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Re: Ignatius derived Pilate from Simon Magus and connected him with Jesus

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No, Simon Magus is not found at all in Ignatius. So my argument is more weak. A connection between one who was obsessed by Pilate and a Samaritan "Christian" would have been the ideal to prove definitely my thesis.
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