Chrestians/Christians?

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by GakuseiDon »

dbz wrote: Sat May 27, 2023 8:38 amGreek Suffix
-ουργός • (-ourgós) m or f (neuter -ουργον); second declension
  • creates compound nouns or adjectives with the meaning of -worker ,-maker, -wright
Thus ⲭⲥ̅ may be the "Chrism Maker".

eta.
Greek Suffix
-φόρος • (-fóros) m
  • -bearing
Thus ⲭⲥ̅ may be the "Chrism Bringer".
One thing I'd like to understand is that, if ⲭⲥ̅ in logion 5 and 101 doesn't read "Christ" (derived from the word "chrism"), just what is it suppose to read? Your two options above are interesting examples. Is there any evidence to support either reading, or any other reading?
dbz
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:48 am

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by dbz »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 3:14 pm One thing I'd like to understand is that, if ⲭⲥ̅ in logion 5 and 101 doesn't read "Christ" (derived from the word "chrism"), just what is it suppose to read? Your two options above are interesting examples. Is there any evidence to support either reading, or any other reading?
Prior to its adoption by Greek Septuagint, the mundane act of christing for personal grooming and likely in mystery religion rituals existed. I defer to the classics dept. on its extant historical record and likelihood.

Should we assume the material was scripted by one or possibly more individuals, either scribal secretaries or auto-graphic authors? One pen might of written ⲭⲥ̅ while another wrote XRS?

If ⲭⲥ̅ is related to christing as represented by ⲭ—then ⲥ̅ likely imparts a religious connotation to the mundane Greek word christ. Your guess is good as mine or any other I imagine. Frankincense and Myrrh are both resins (dried tree sap). Myrrh's scent was popular for mundane christing, and may of symbolized the sap from a venerated tree or tree product in a religious context.
gfm.png
gfm.png (1.3 MiB) Viewed 273304 times
User avatar
GakuseiDon
Posts: 2295
Joined: Sat Oct 12, 2013 5:10 pm

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by GakuseiDon »

dbz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:27 pmIf ⲭⲥ̅ is related to christing as represented by ⲭ—then ⲥ̅ likely imparts a religious connotation to the mundane Greek word christ. Your guess is good as mine or any other I imagine.
My guess is much much worse than anyone else's on this thread! I have no idea about ancient languages. I'd heard of nomica sacra but never thought about it in terms of what I was reading in the English versions of the ancient texts. Obviously there is great potential for biases of orthodox Christian translaters to play a part in those texts, as mlinssen has clearly demonstrated.
dbz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:27 pmFrankincense and Myrrh are both resins (dried tree sap). Myrrh's scent was popular for mundane christing, and may of symbolized the sap from a venerated tree or tree product in a religious
The GoP has the chrism as olive oil, for what it's worth:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... hilip.html

Philip the apostle said, "Joseph the carpenter planted a garden because he needed wood for his trade. It was he who made the cross from the trees which he planted. His own offspring hung on that which he planted. His offspring was Jesus, and the planting was the cross." But the Tree of Life is in the middle of the Garden. However, it is from the olive tree that we got the chrism, and from the chrism, the resurrection.

So I guess is that any ritual would have involved olive oil.
User avatar
MrMacSon
Posts: 8798
Joined: Sat Oct 05, 2013 3:45 pm

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by MrMacSon »

dbz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:27 pm
Prior to its adoption by Greek Septuagint, the mundane act of christing for personal grooming, and, likely in mystery religion rituals, existed. I defer to the classics dept. on its extant historical record and likelihood.
I presume you're referring to this [from your very recent post in this thread]:
dbz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:20 am
... Prior to its usage in the Greek Septuagint, Christ was used to describe putting on scented hair oil for a night out on the town. cf. Musgrave, Samuel, ed (1778). "Cyclops" (in Greek). ΕΥΡΙΠΙΔΟΥ ΤΑ ΣΩΖΟΜΕΝΑ (Euripidou ta sozomena - Euripides the saved) | Euripides, Quae extant omnia (All things extant). England: OUP|Clarendon Press. p.3:80.

The consensus is that, for Paul, the term "Christ" is not the “messiah” of the Greek Septuagint

When scholars of early Judaism, who have cast about for any instances of the word “messiah” in Hellenistic— and Roman—period literature, find an unparalleled cache of such instances in the letters of Paul, New Testament scholars reply that Paul says it, but does not mean it: that, for him, χριστός means “Christ,” not “messiah.”

--Novenson, Matthew V. ( 2012). Christ among the Messiahs: Christ Language in Paul and Messiah Language in Ancient Judaism. New York: Oxford University Press.

Novenson argues that Paul does use messiah language, see:
My study paints a clearer picture not only of the ritual itself but what it symbolically meant. The three themes are first, a literal anointing; second, a symbol for the reception of the Holy Spirit; and third, an endowment of knowledge or power.
--Becerra, Daniel, "Three Motifs in Early Christian Oil Anointing" (2009). Faculty Publications. 3527.
https://scholarsarchive.byu.edu/facpub/3527

  • Is there any more scholarship on this?
  • Of course, re —

    The three themes are first, a literal anointing; second, a symbol for the reception of the Holy Spirit; and third, an endowment of knowledge or power [Becerra, 2009]

    — all three are meant by anointing in Christianity and by Paul's use of it more knowledge than power primarily in the third, but, even then, #2, "reception of the holy Spirit" and perception—'knowledge'—of that would provide [some] "power"


dbz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:27 pm If ⲭⲥ̅ is related to Christing as represented by ⲭ— then ⲥ̅ likely imparts a religious connotation to the mundane Greek word Christ. Your guess is good as mine or any other I imagine. Frankincense and Myrrh are both resins (dried tree sap). Myrrh's scent was popular for mundane Christing, and may of symbolized the sap from a venerated tree or tree product in a religious context.
  • did you mean ⲭ— or x͞ . ?
    ( or both ie. x͞— ? )
dbz
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:48 am

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by dbz »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:02 pm
dbz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:27 pm If ⲭⲥ̅ is related to Christing as represented by ⲭ— then ⲥ̅ likely imparts a religious connotation to the mundane Greek word Christ. Your guess is good as mine or any other I imagine. Frankincense and Myrrh are both resins (dried tree sap). Myrrh's scent was popular for mundane Christing, and may of symbolized the sap from a venerated tree or tree product in a religious context.
  • did you mean ⲭ— or x͞ ?
    ( or both ie. x͞— ? )
  • Per the "nomina sacra" in Coptic script: ⲭⲥ̅ or else x͞—, etc.. I see no reason to differentiate.
I speculate, without evidence, it conveys two ideas, viz. Christing+'?'. Either as two words or a compound word with a suffix, for example, "-bringer", i.e. meaning the venerated entity/principle that introduced this novel christing that imparts knowledge/power to the devotee.
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2817
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Leucius Charinus »

dbz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:20 am
Connell footnote 4 wrote: "Christ," the divine title for Jesus, means the "anointed" and is omnipresent in the New Testament, used 529 times, 379 of those times in the correspondence of Paul (1 and 2 Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Philemon, 1 Thessalonians, Romans). Idem., "The Christ-Statements of the New Testament,"TDNT, volume 9:527-80, here at 528.
--Connell, M. F. (2009). On ‘Chrism’and ‘Anti-Christs’ in 1 John 2: 18-27: A Hypothesis.
What both Connell and the TDNT fail to mention here is the fact that "Christ" does not appear in the earliest Greek NT manuscripts. What appears in the earliest Greek NT evidence is the nomina sacra term "XS" and it is this term -- in these earliest codices -- that the author of Philip first responds to.
ML wrote:No text in the entire world ever says Christ - although plenty of them say Chrest. I'll point you to the larger "concise Philip":

viewtopic.php?p=135571#p135571
Imagine you walked into a 4th century imperial library, public library or book store and picked up a copy of the Greek NT Bible in which this rune "XS" is used 529 times, 379 of those times in the correspondence of Paul. I'd suspect therefore that the "church history" of Eusebius would be also available in that library or bookstore as part of the overall package. That is the church held the legend to the "XS" runes. Otherwise who was this "XS" for the educated pagans? An enigma?

So the NT publication contained an encryption "XS". The question for everyone was how this encryption was supposed to be de-encrypted. Whether as "Chrest" or C'hreist" or "Christ"? We know that the church eventually settled on the "Christ" as their registered trade mark de-encryption standard. But before that happened there may have been some confusion. Whoever wrote Philip (my guess is in the 4th century) may have been experimenting (unofficially of course) with the de-encryption algorithms. That's my take atm.
User avatar
billd89
Posts: 1347
Joined: Thu Jun 25, 2020 6:27 pm
Location: New England, USA

Re: Ointment

Post by billd89 »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 6:00 pm
dbz wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 5:27 pmFrankincense and Myrrh are both resins (dried tree sap). Myrrh's scent was popular for mundane christing, and may of symbolized the sap from a venerated tree or tree product in a religious
The GoP has the chrism as olive oil, for what it's worth:
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... hilip.html

Philip the apostle said, "Joseph the carpenter planted a garden because he needed wood for his trade. It was he who made the cross from the trees which he planted. His own offspring hung on that which he planted. His offspring was Jesus, and the planting was the cross." But the Tree of Life is in the middle of the Garden. However, it is from the olive tree that we got the chrism, and from the chrism, the resurrection.

So I guess is that any ritual would have involved olive oil.
Olive oil must have been the base, but the ratios of whatever composite unguent we know not. A recent news item may be of related interest.
User avatar
Peter Kirby
Site Admin
Posts: 8033
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 2:13 pm
Location: Santa Clara
Contact:

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Leucius Charinus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:31 pm Imagine you walked into a 4th century imperial library, public library or book store and picked up a copy of the Greek NT Bible in which this rune "XS" is used 529 times, 379 of those times in the correspondence of Paul.
A point of order, so tellingly forgotten: in Greek (unlike Coptic), X... had several variants that correspond to noun inflections (nominative, genitive, accusative, etc). In this respect, it does not behave entirely like a "rune" (a mark or letter of mysterious or magic significance) since that would presumably not be altered in accordance with the rules of Greek grammar.

For the known versions of the Greek text, I have seen no credible suggestions other than the words/names of "anointed" (vowel iota) or "useful" (vowel eta) despite enormous ingenuity applied to find alternatives.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by mlinssen »

Peter Kirby wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:35 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 7:31 pm Imagine you walked into a 4th century imperial library, public library or book store and picked up a copy of the Greek NT Bible in which this rune "XS" is used 529 times, 379 of those times in the correspondence of Paul.
A point of order, so tellingly forgotten: in Greek (unlike Coptic), X... had several variants that correspond to noun inflections (nominative, genitive, accusative, etc). In this respect, it does not behave like a "rune" (a mark or letter of mysterious or magic significance) since that would presumably not be altered in accordance with the rules of Greek grammar.

In the known versions of the Greek text, I have seen no remotely credible suggestions other than the words/names of "anointed" (vowel iota) or "useful" (vowel eta) despite enormous ingenuity applied to find alternatives.
Exactly. As I've stated quite a few times before, only an idiot would invent a system like this in Greek.
In Coptic, however? Splendid, no problem whatsoever, as there is always only one form that never gets conjugated

Peter, 'good / kind' are certainly applications of the word, cf. Justin Martyr, Tertullian, and so on. Or just the NT really:

Matt 11:30
(BSB)
For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
(THGNT)
ὁ γὰρ ζυγός μου χρηστὸς καὶ τὸ φορτίον μου ἐλαφρόν ἐστιν.
Luke 5:39
(BSB)
And no one after drinking old [wine ] wants new, for he says, ‘The old is better.’”
(THGNT)
οὐδεὶς πιὼν παλαιὸν θέλει νέον, λέγει γάρ· ὁ παλαιὸς χρηστός ἐστιν.
Luke 6:35
(BSB)
But love your enemies, do good [to them] , and lend [to them] , expecting nothing in return. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High; for He is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.
(THGNT)
πλὴν ἀγαπᾶτε τοὺς ἐχθροὺς ὑμῶν καὶ ἀγαθοποιεῖτε καὶ δανίζετε μηδὲν ἀπελπίζοντες· καὶ ἔσται ὁ μισθὸς ὑμῶν πολύς, καὶ ἔσεσθε υἱοὶ ὑψίστου, ὅτι αὐτὸς χρηστός ἐστιν ἐπὶ τοὺς ἀχαρίστους καὶ πονηρούς.
Rom 2:4
(BSB)
Or do you disregard the riches of His kindness, tolerance, and patience, not realizing that God’s kindness leads you to repentance?
(THGNT)
ἢ τοῦ πλούτου τῆς χρηστότητος αὐτοῦ καὶ τῆς ἀνοχῆς καὶ τῆς μακροθυμίας καταφρονεῖς ἀγνοῶν ὅτι τὸ χρηστὸν τοῦ θεοῦ εἰς μετάνοιάν σε ἄγει;
1Cor 15:33
(BSB)
{Do} not be deceived: “Bad company corrupts good character.”
(THGNT)
μὴ πλανᾶσθε· φθείρουσιν ἤθη χρηστὰ ὁμιλίαι κακαί.
Eph 4:32
(BSB)
Be kind [and] tender-hearted to one another, forgiving each other just as in Christ God forgave you.
(THGNT)
γείνεσθε δὲ εἰς ἀλλήλους χρηστοί, εὔσπλαγχνοι, χαριζόμενοι ἑαυτοῖς καθὼς καὶ ὁ θεὸς ἐν χριστῷ ἐχαρίσατο ἡμῖν.
1Pet 2:3
(BSB)
now that you have tasted that the Lord [is] good.
(THGNT)
εἰ ἐγεύσασθε ὅτι χρηστὸς ὁ κύριος.

Pete, have you counted the LXX as well? The nomen sacrum XS gets used there for "anointed", just as the nomen sacrum for IS gets used for Joshua of Nun - next to Ihsous in full on occasion
dbz
Posts: 512
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2021 9:48 am

Re: Chrestians/Christians?

Post by dbz »

Ben C. Smith wrote: Sun Jan 17, 2016 1:31 pm Philip 51-100.

Nag Hammadi Codex II, Pages 51-86
Nag Hammadi Codex II, Pages 51-86
98 ⲫⲓⲗⲓⲡⲡⲟⲥ ⲡⲁⲡⲟⲥⲧⲟⲗⲟⲥ ⲡⲉϫⲁϥ ϫⲉ ϊⲱⲥⲏⲫ' ⲡϩⲁⲙ'ϣⲉ' ⲁϥⲧⲱϭⲉ ⲛ̅ⲛⲟⲩⲡⲁⲣⲁⲇⲉⲓⲥⲟⲥ ϫⲉ ⲛⲉϥⲣ̅ⲭⲣⲉⲓⲁ ⲛ̅ϩⲛ̅ϣⲉ ⲉϩⲟⲩⲛ' ⲉⲧⲉϥ'ⲧⲉⲭⲛⲏ ⲛ̅ⲧⲟϥ ⲡⲉⲛⲧⲁϩⲧⲁⲙⲓⲟ ⲙ̅ⲡⲥⲧⲁⲩⲣⲟⲥ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ϩⲛ̅ ⲛ̅ϣⲏⲛ ⲛ̅ⲧⲁϥ'ⲧⲟϭⲟⲩ ⲁⲩⲱ ⲡⲉϥϭⲣⲟϭ ⲛⲉϥ'ⲟϣⲉ ⲁⲡⲉⲛⲧⲁϥⲧⲟϭϥ' ⲛⲉ ⲡⲉϥϭⲣⲟϭ ⲡⲉ ⲓ<ⲏⲥ> ⲡⲧⲱϭⲉ ⲇⲉ ⲡⲉ ⲡⲉⲥxⲟⲥ ⲁⲗⲗⲁ ⲡϣⲏⲛ ⲙ̅ⲡⲱⲛϩ ϩⲛ̅ ⲧⲙⲏⲧⲉ ⲙ̅ⲡⲡⲁⲣⲁⲇⲉⲓⲥⲟⲥ

ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲃⲉⲛ̅ϫⲟⲉⲓⲧ' ⲛ̅ⲧⲁ ⲡⲉⲭⲣⲉⲓⲥⲙⲁ ϣⲱⲡⲉ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ' ⲛ̅ϩⲏⲧⲥ̅ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ϩⲓⲧⲟⲟⲧϥ' ⲁⲧⲁⲛⲁⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲥ
98 Philip the apostle said, "Joseph the carpenter planted a garden because he needed wood for his trade. It was he who made the cross from the trees which he planted. His own offspring hung on that which he planted. His offspring was Jesus, and the planting was the cross." But the Tree of Life is in the middle of the Garden.

However, it is from the olive tree that we got the chrism, and from the chrism, the resurrection.

and............the-tree...of-olive.................did-the-Chrism................................become

auw t.be n-.`oeit n-ta.pe.xreisma 4w


C019b........P080-C028a.. P262-C790b............. P202-P080-Gk................. ...................... C577b



..............forth..........in-heart-of.it,....forth...........thru-him...regarding-the-resurrection.

pe ebol n-.6ht.s- ebol 6itoot.3 a.t.a

............ C034a..........P262-C714a-P041.. C034a............. P277-P035... ..............P261.1-P080-Gk.

.

nastasis.
"98". web.archive.org. 26 December 2005.
  • ⲁⲩⲱ ⲧⲃⲉⲛ̅ϫⲟⲉⲓⲧ' ⲛ̅ⲧⲁ ⲡⲉⲭⲣⲉⲓⲥⲙⲁ ϣⲱⲡⲉ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ' ⲛ̅ϩⲏⲧⲥ̅ ⲉⲃⲟⲗ ϩⲓⲧⲟⲟⲧϥ' ⲁⲧⲁⲛⲁⲥⲧⲁⲥⲓⲥ
Post Reply