The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

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rgprice
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

Post by rgprice »

It is an interesting hypothesis, I'll give you that.
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

Post by Secret Alias »

So Irenaeus only wrote the books known to Eusebius or any Church Father?
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

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It is an interesting hypothesis
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

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It would be an interesting question if it is probable that three works arguing that Marcion's gospel was a corrupt version of Luke could be written independently of one another. The answer would depend on whether Marcion's gospel really resembled Luke. It would be like if three witnesses of my Aunt Karin said she looked like Elizabeth Taylor and she looked nothing like Liz Taylor.
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

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The question could come down to the presence of Matthean parallels. Doesn't this suggest that the gospel wasn't strictly Lukan? If so it is unlikely that 3 authors with similar enough methodologies that they were seen as related by Harnack didn't make the Marcion corrupted Luke argument independent of one another.
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

Post by Peter Kirby »

Secret Alias wrote: Wed Jun 07, 2023 5:54 pm didn't make the Marcion corrupted Luke argument independent of one another.
They didn't. That's already found in Against Heresies, and I agree that Tertullian and Epiphanius both read that work.
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

Post by Secret Alias »

But its more than that. They followed the plan Irenaeus set out for proving Marcion falsified Luke and the Apostle by using the portions of each that he retained. Is it likely that two individuals separately followed that "idea" that Irenaeus set forth without having the work that Irenaeus wrote? You say he didn't complete Against Marcion. This, I suppose, is because Eusebius doesn't know if it wasn't completed (he doesn't say it wasn't completed). The only work of Irenaeus we knew before a discovery in an Armenian monastery was Against Heresies. I am not sure if Eusebius knows of Defense of the Apostolic Preaching. But what is the likelihood that Tertullian and Eusebius (a) reference the same "corruptions" of Luke by Marcion when at least some of them are only Western or Bezae variants and (b) both decided to "take it upon themselves" to complete this supposed "never completed work." Maybe Tertullian and Photius give us a good reason why this work never survived. Irenaeus said weird things. Photius writes "St. Irenaeus is said to have been the author of many other works of various kinds including letters, in some of which it should be observed that the exact truth of the doctrines of the Church appears to be falsified by spurious arguments." Maybe that's why Tertullian had to claim call his book a rewrite of someone who was an apostate and falsified what was originally said in Against Marcion presumably by Justin.
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

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But really just because I say "hey I am going to write a book about how chocolate is better than vanilla with all desserts" doesn't mean you're going to have two idiots write two separate treatises on "why chocolate is better than vanilla with desserts." I think it is more likely that the two wrote similar treatises with Irenaeus's methodology is because they had a copy of his work.
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

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Actually Eusebius DOES SAY Irenaeus completed his work Against Marcion. From Book 4:
Philip who, as we learn from the words of Dionysius, was bishop of the parish of Gortyna, likewise wrote a most elaborate work Against Marcion, as did also Irenæus and Modestus. 4.24 https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/250104.htm
Case closed I think.

Φίλιππός γε μήν, ὃν ἐκ τῶν ∆ιονυσίου φωνῶν τῆς ἐν Γορτύνῃ παροικίας ἐπίσκοπον ἔγνωμεν, πάνυ γε σπουδαιότατον πεποίηται καὶ αὐτὸς κατὰ Μαρκίωνος λόγον, Εἰρηναῖός τε ὡσαύτως καὶ Μόδεστος
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Re: The Smoking Gun of Irenaeus's Against Marcion as the Text Beneath Both Tertullian and Epiphanius?

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Our friend Markus Vinzent acknowledges Irenaeus completed the work too:
No other teacher in the history of the Church until Martin Luther than Marcion received already during his lifetime and still after his death a comparable literary response.53 Here follows a list of these responses in the order of their appearance during the second century only:

– Justin Martyr (Rom), To Marcion (πρὸς Μαρκίωνα σύνταγμα) (before 151);54
– An unknown Asian Presbyter of Rome;
– Dionysius of Corinth, Letter to Nicomedia (ca. 171);55
– Philippus of Gortyna (Crete), Against Marcion (κατὰ Μαρκίωνος λόγος) (ca. 171/2);56
– Theophilus of Antioch, Against Marcion (κατὰ Μαρκίωνος λόγος) (ca. 169–183);57
– Irenaeus of Lyon, Against Marcion (κατὰ Μαρκίωνος λόγος) (before 177);58
– Rhodo (Rom), To (or) On Marcion’s School (πρὸς τὴν Μαρκίωνος αἵρεσιν) (180–192);59
– Modestus, Against Marcion (κατὰ Μαρκίωνος λόγος);60
– Bardesanes of Syria, On Marcion’s dialogues (πρὸς τοὺς κατὰ Μαρκίωνα … διαλόγους σύγγραμμα);61
– Hippolytus of Rome, To Marcion (πρὸς Μαρκίωνα).62
As this impressive list shows, many of the theologians of the second century of standing engaged with Marcion.

53 See Bart D. Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture (Oxford 1993: 22011), 216: “No other heretic evoked such vitriol or, interestingly enough, proved so instrumental for counterdevelopments within orthodoxy.”
54 See Euseb., Hist. eccl. 4.18.9. Interestingly, and guided by his view of Justin’s position with regards to Marcion, in: ib. 4.11.8 he alters the title to κατὰ Μαρκίωνος σύγγραμμα.
55 See ib., 4.23.4.
56 See ib., 4.25.
57 See ib., 4.24.
58 See ib., 4.25; 5.8.9.
59 Ib., 5.13.
60 See ib., 4.25.
61 See ib., 4.30.1.
62 See ib., 4.22.1 https://www.academia.edu/31939279/Marci ... ristianity
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