The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Post by Secret Alias »

When people reject the entire notion that "Chrestos" was once used as the title of Jesus they already put a low estimation on the value of the Marcionites. "Oh they were a sect." "Oh the Church Fathers thought they were a bit kooky." "Oh they hated Jews." All this bullshit. The Marcionites, unlike the orthodox knew what "THE Messiah" meant to their Jewish contemporaries and they said "that's not Jesus." I see this as a lot earlier and of a greater value than the figures like Irenaeus who say essential, "yeah but the Jews didn't know what God meant by Christ." Can we just stop with the "Chrestos" isn't a real title of Jesus and admit the Marcionite used this title?
davidmartin
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Re: The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Post by davidmartin »

it's not about Marcionite kooky sect, the epistles & pastorals of the NT argue Jesus wasn't the Messiah quite convincingly
only 6 books of the NT say Jesus is the Messiah, that's it you only need Marcionites if you're looking for more extreme views than Jesus wasn't the Messiah
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Re: The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Post by rgprice »

I don't think we can just assume or "conclude". But it is a difficult issue because in the first three or four centuries of writings neither "Christos" nor "Chrestos" is written anywhere. One can only infer from context.

Certainly a question is whether the Pauline letters originally used the term Chrestos or Christos.
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Peter Kirby
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Re: The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Post by Peter Kirby »

davidmartin wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:10 am the epistles & pastorals of the NT argue Jesus wasn't the Messiah quite convincingly
What do you mean?
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Post by MrMacSon »

Chrestos was also a Marcionite reference to their Father God Almighty, The God above what they perceived to be the Jewish [mere] creator god

Marcionism is enmeshed in Chrestos-ism
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Re: The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Post by Peter Kirby »

rgprice wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:23 am Certainly a question is whether the Pauline letters originally used the term Chrestos or Christos.
The OP isn't directly talking about that.

We could use a name for this kind of thing. Let's call it the original-ist fallacy. On matters of interpretation, the original-ist fallacy consistently turns to argument over the original text to investigate them. This is in spite of the fact that the original text isn't necessarily the text being used when it was interpreted by others. The original text isn't the only relevant text. When the interpreters themselves did not have or (even) could not recover the original text, it's actually irrelevant.

For example, if the Marcionites had only the text with abbreviations, it's actually irrelevant to the OP what the original term was.

The OP says:

Can we just stop with the "Chrestos" isn't a real title of Jesus and admit the Marcionite used this title?

It doesn't ask whether Paul or the original Pauline letters used the title.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Post by MrMacSon »

rgprice wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:23 am
.. it is a difficult issue because in the first three or four centuries of writings neither "Christos" nor "Chrestos" is written anywhere. One can only infer from context.

Certainly a question is whether the Pauline letters originally used the term Chrestos or Christos.

I reckon the ambiguity of Chrestos/good and Christos/annointed [etc] was likely part of the schtick; part of the mystery

(Chrestos does appear occasionally in the LXX versions of the Hebrew scriptures, but, of course, when they were written and various Christian tropes were written in them remains a mystery, iiuc)
rgprice
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Re: The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Post by rgprice »

MrMacSon wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:46 am I reckon the ambiguity of Chrestos/good and Christos/annointed [etc] was likely part of the schtick; part of the mystery

(Chrestos does appear occasionally in the LXX versions of the Hebrew scriptures, but, of course, when they were written and various Christian tropes were written in them remains a mystery, iiuc)
That was going to be my next questions. Does Chrestos appear in the LXX and where?
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Re: The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

Post by Peter Kirby »

rgprice wrote: Mon Feb 12, 2024 11:55 am Does Chrestos appear in the LXX and where?
You can find it, in full, in the septuagint of Sinaitucus, where it is the word 'kind' or 'good'.

A transcription can be downloaded here: https://codexsinaiticus.org/en/project/ ... ption.aspx

The same text of the septuagint sometimes uses the abbreviation for anointed / christos.
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Re: The Marcionite Rejection of Christ

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Job 31:31 if the men of my house have not said, ‘Who is there who has not had his fill?’— (χρηστοῦ) (lost in translation)
Ps 14:1 For the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “ [There is] no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good (χρηστότητα).
Ps 14:3 All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good (χρηστότητα), not even one.
Ps 21:3 For You welcomed him with rich (χρηστότητος) blessings; You placed on his head a crown of pure gold.
Ps 25:7 Remember not the sins of my youth, or my rebellious acts; remember me according to Your loving devotion, because of Your goodness (χρηστότητός), O LORD.
Ps 25:8 Good (χρηστὸς) and upright [is] the LORD; therefore He shows sinners the way.
Ps 31:19 How great is Your goodness (χρηστότητός) which You have laid up for those who fear You, and bestowed on those who take refuge in You in the sight of the sons of men.
Ps 34:8 Taste and see that the LORD is good (χρηστὸς); blessed is the man who takes refuge in Him!
Ps 37:3 Trust in the LORD and do good (χρηστότητα); dwell in the land and cultivate faithfulness.
Ps 52:9 I will praise You forever, because You have done it. I will wait on Your name— for it is good (χρηστὸν) — in the presence of Your saints.
Ps 65:11 You crown the year with Your bounty (χρηστότητός), and Your paths overflow with plenty.
Ps 68:10 Your flock settled therein; O God, from Your bounty (χρηστότητί) You provided for the poor.
Ps 69:16 Answer me, O LORD, for Your loving devotion is good (χρηστὸν); turn to me in keeping with Your great compassion.
Ps 85:12 The LORD will indeed provide what is good (χρηστότητα), and our land will yield its increase.
Ps 86:5 For You, O Lord, are kind (χρηστὸς) and forgiving, rich in loving devotion to all who call on You.
Ps 100:5 For the LORD is good (χρηστὸς), and His loving devotion endures forever; His faithfulness continues to all generations.
Ps 104:28 When You give it to them, they gather it up; when You open Your hand, they are satisfied with good (χρηστότητος) things.
Ps 106:1 Hallelujah! Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good (χρηστός); His loving devotion endures forever.
Ps 106:5 that I may see the prosperity (χρηστότητι) of Your chosen ones, and rejoice in the gladness of Your nation, and give glory with Your inheritance.
Ps 107:1 Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good (χρηστός); His loving devotion endures forever.
Ps 109:21 But You, O GOD, the Lord, deal kindly with me for the sake of Your name; deliver me by the goodness (χρηστὸν) of Your loving devotion.

Linssen, Martijn. Gospels, Epistles, Old Testament: The order of books according to Jesus Chri st (pp. 57-59). Kindle Edition.

Ps 112:5 It is well (χρηστὸς) with the man who is generous and lends freely, whose affairs are guided by justice.
Ps 119:39 Turn away the disgrace I dread, for Your judgments are good (χρηστά).
Ps 119:65 You are good (Χρηστότητα) to Your servant, O LORD, according to Your word.
Ps 119:66 Teach me good (χρηστότητα) judgment and knowledge, for I believe in Your commandments.
Ps 119:68 You are good (χρηστὸς), and You do what is good (χρηστότητί); teach me Your statutes.
Ps 136:1 Give thanks to the LORD, for He is good (χρηστός). His loving devotion endures forever.
Ps 145:7 They will extol the fame of Your abundant goodness (χρηστότητός) and joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
Ps 145:9 The LORD is good (χρηστὸς) to all; His compassion rests on all He has made.
Prov 2:21 For the upright (χρηστοὶ) will inhabit the land, and the blameless will remain in it;
Jer 24:2 One basket [had] very good (χρηστῶν) figs, like those that ripen early, but the other basket contained very poor figs, so bad they could not be eaten.
Jer 24:3 “Jeremiah,” the LORD asked, “what do you see?” “Figs!” I replied. “The good (χρηστὰ) figs are very good (χρηστὰ), but the bad figs are very bad, so bad they cannot be eaten.”
Jer 24:5 “This is what the LORD, the God of Israel, says: ‘Like these good (χρηστὰ) figs, so I regard as good the exiles from Judah, whom I have sent away from this place to the land of the Chaldeans.
Jer 33:11 the sounds of joy [and] gladness, the voices of the bride [and] bridegroom, and the voices of those bringing thank offerings into the house of the LORD, saying: ‘Give thanks to the LORD of Hosts, for the LORD is good (χρηστὸς); His loving devotion endures forever.’ For I will restore the land from captivity as in former times, says the LORD.
Jer 44:17 Instead, we will do everything we said: We will burn incense to the queen of heaven and offer drink offerings to her, just as we, our fathers, our kings, and our officials did in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem. At that time we had plenty of food and good (χρηστοι) things, and we saw no disaster.
Jer 52:32 He spoke kindly (χρηστὰ) [to Jehoiachin] and set his throne above the thrones of the other kings with [him] in Babylon.
Ezek 27:22 The merchants of Sheba and Raamah traded with you; for your wares they exchanged gold, the finest of all spices, and precious (χρηστῶν) stones.
Ezek 28:13 You were in Eden, the garden of God. Every kind of precious (χρηστὸν) stone adorned you: ruby, topaz, and diamond, beryl, onyx, and jasper, sapphire, turquoise, and emerald. Your mountings and settings were crafted in gold, prepared on the day of your creation.
Dan 2:32 The head of the statue was pure (χρηστοῦ) gold, its chest and arms were silver, its belly and thighs were bronze,
Nah 1:7 The LORD is good (χρηστὸς), a stronghold in the day of distress; He cares for those who trust in Him. A total of 40 verses, 42 occurrences of words that stem from χρηστός.

Linssen, Martijn. Gospels, Epistles, Old Testament: The order of books according to Jesus Chri st (pp. 59-60). Kindle Edition.

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