No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:35 pm I had one bad unfortunate life. I could only dream of truly living a rewarding life spending every waking hour trying to destroy a religion. I envy you so much. What could have been if I had the luck to have lived out my days as a miserable bald (and gay?) Australian.
Don't worry, Secret. We're all here for ya! Omg you are easier to tease and a bigger over-reactor than even Stephen Goranson and I thought he was the ultimate!

Ya know, I do have respect and time for people who come from other backgrounds, and especially if I have had more opportunities in some areas than they have had. But when someone resorts to bullying, insults, and even to sneering at others who have read more than they have and dig in and stubbornly refuse to open their minds to actually learn more about how scholarship works in fields of their special interest, then my human side does sometimes come out and I think they deserve everything they get here -- including their own self-inflicted comparisons of belonging to another species.

Peace man, and -- hey -- try to be nice. Just a little understanding.... it won't hurt to try it. Or maybe it will mean the end of your oh-so-heroic "manly authority" with which you courageously defecate your ignorance in post after post after 15,000th post here! -- or 20000th, as someone else corrected me. :cheeky:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Secret Alias wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:35 pmI had one bad unfortunate life.
The thread is slowly getting closer to where I wanted to go :thumbup:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:09 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:54 amAre you aware about the high number of mythicists who have assumed a such incipit for Mcn ...
I will see them all in sackcloth and mourning ;)
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Ken Olson
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Ken Olson »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed Oct 26, 2022 5:05 am
Secret Alias wrote: Tue Oct 25, 2022 10:35 pmI had one bad unfortunate life.
The thread is slowly getting closer to where I wanted to go :thumbup:
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed Oct 19, 2022 4:09 am
Giuseppe wrote: Tue Oct 18, 2022 6:54 amAre you aware about the high number of mythicists who have assumed a such incipit for Mcn ...
I will see them all in sackcloth and mourning ;)
:notworthy:
andrewcriddle
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by andrewcriddle »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 8:58 am I don't refer only to Heracleon (Capernaum allegory of Hades).

The Gospel of Barnabas identifies Capernaum with the cemetery where there was the Gerasene demonic.

21. 1. Jesus went up to Capernaum, and as he drew near to the city behold there came out of the tombs one that was possessed of a devil,

Additional reason to think that the incipit of Marcion's gospel started with the descent of Jesus into the Hades, where he freed only the people punished by the demiurge.

Now, this may raise the curious possibility that Jesus was seen the first time on the earth by Paul, according to Marcion: isn't it a coincidence that precisely the Gerasene demonic (and the abortion, a negative attribute of the demiurge) was identified with Paul?
In its present form the Gospel of Barnabas is a late medieval text.

Andrew Criddle
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

.
How the idea of a descent from above to Capernaum probably came about

1)
GMark 6 shows that in his hometown Jesus is perceived as part of his family in a traditional way: "Sad that people can't go beyond the usual thought patterns".
1 He went away from there and came to his hometown, and his disciples followed him. 2 And on the Sabbath he began to teach in the synagogue, and many who heard him were astonished, saying, “Where did this man get these things? What is the wisdom given to him? How are such mighty works done by his hands? 3 Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses and Judas and Simon? And are not his sisters here with us?” And they took offense at him. 4 And Jesus said to them, “A prophet is not without honor, except in his hometown and among his relatives and in his own household.”

2)
GLuke 4 moves the revised form of the pericope to the beginning of Jesus' ministry.
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up. And as was his custom, he went to the synagogue on the Sabbath day, and he stood up to read ... 22 And all spoke well of him and marveled at the gracious words that were coming from his mouth. And they said, "Is not this Joseph's son?" 23 And he said to them, "Doubtless you will quote to me this proverb, '"Physician, heal yourself." What we have heard you did at Capernaum, do here in your hometown as well.'” 24 And he said, “Truly, I say to you, no prophet is acceptable in his hometown.

3)
GJohn 6 extends the misunderstanding in the hometown to the Jews in general, locates the pericope in Capernaum and writes:
24 So when the crowd saw that Jesus was not there, nor his disciples, they themselves got into the boats and went to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. … 36 But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. ... 41 So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, “I am the bread that came down from heaven.” 42 They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” … 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.

In GJohn, Jesus is "descending" from above and not (just Marcion's) "coming down".

All that remains now is to connect Capernaum, the beginning of Jesus' ministry and the descent from heaven.
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:05 am
GJohn 6 extends the misunderstanding in the hometown to the Jews in general, locates the pericope in Capernaum and writes:
are you saying that GJohn preceded even *Ev in placing the misunderstanding in Capernaum?


What I find very interesting (and I can only thank you for this finding) is that GJohn assumes that Jesus is descended from heaven in Capernaum. This makes me think: was the original incipit of proto-John one very similar to the incipit of the Evangelion, with Jesus descending from heaven in Capernaum?
Giuseppe
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Giuseppe »

Only compare the following passages:
John Luke 4:23

They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” … 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.


And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’”


Is not it a rational conclusion, in both the cases, the inference of a previous narrative where, respectively, (1) Jesus descended from heaven in Capernaum and (2) he did miracles there ?
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Ken Olson
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Ken Olson »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:05 am All that remains now is to connect Capernaum, the beginning of Jesus' ministry and the descent from heaven.
I don't think it's particularly difficult to locate a likely source for that.

Luke 4.31:
Καὶ κατῆλθεν εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ πόλιν τῆς Γαλιλαίας
And he went down [descended] to Capernaum a city of Galilee.

But a few mysteries remain :)
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Ken Olson wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:33 am I don't think it's particularly difficult to locate a likely source for that.
Luke 4.31:
Καὶ κατῆλθεν εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ πόλιν τῆς Γαλιλαίας
And he went down [descended] to Capernaum a city of Galilee.

But a few mysteries remain :)
Exactly, you only have to implement the idea in this source
Secret Alias
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

Please don't forget Baarda's Flying Jesus. https://brill.com/view/journals/vc/40/4 ... anguage=en Why do we forget Baarda's Flying Jesus? Because we aren't serious about reconstructing the Marcionite gospel in any way that doesn't reinforce what the Church Fathers tell us. It's like having a debate with Jehovah's Witnesses about the name "Jehovah." It is Luke because they tell us it is Luke. It's more than Luke. The Church Fathers created Luke to distract us.
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