No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Peter Kirby »

Giuseppe wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:25 am Only compare the following passages:
John Luke 4:23

They said, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, ‘I have come down from heaven’?” … 59 Jesus said these things in the synagogue, as he taught at Capernaum.


And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’”


Is not it a rational conclusion, in both the cases, the inference of a previous narrative where, respectively, (1) Jesus descended from heaven in Capernaum and (2) he did miracles there ?
Ken Olson wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:33 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 6:05 am All that remains now is to connect Capernaum, the beginning of Jesus' ministry and the descent from heaven.
I don't think it's particularly difficult to locate a likely source for that.

Luke 4.31:
Καὶ κατῆλθεν εἰς Καφαρναοὺμ πόλιν τῆς Γαλιλαίας
And he went down [descended] to Capernaum a city of Galilee.

But a few mysteries remain :)
I would add to this that a possessionist reading of Mark 1:10-12:

10 Just as Jesus was coming up out of the water, he saw heaven being torn open and the Spirit descending [καταβαῖνον] on him like a dove. 11 And a voice came from heaven: “You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased.” 12 At once the Spirit sent him out into the wilderness, ...

Already has Christ (who is the Spirit) descending on Jesus (a man) at the outset of Mark.
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

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Secret Alias wrote: Wed May 31, 2023 7:04 am Please don't forget Baarda's Flying Jesus. https://brill.com/view/journals/vc/40/4 ... anguage=en Why do we forget Baarda's Flying Jesus?
I haven't forgotten it.
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

But here is the point. If Marcion's gospel has Jesus "descend" immediately below and then "fly up" after "passing through" the crowd the question of Jesus's supernatural nature would have been settled. Notice that Tertullian only deals with the "descent" (by comparing it Romulus) and the "passing through" BUT NOT the second "flying" after the crowd attempts to push him over the precipice and then plunges into chasm.

Why does Tertullian do this? Well let's deal with simple topography. He says Jesus "descended" to Capernaum and then heals the demon in the synagogue and then this:
According to the prophecy, the Creator's Christ was to be called a Nazarene. For that reason, and on his account, the Jews call us by that very name, Nazarenes. For we are also those of whom it is written, The Nazarenes were made whiter than snow,b having previously of course been darkened with the stains of sin, and blackened with the darkness of ignorance. But to Christ the appellation of Nazarene was to apply because of his hiding-place in infancy, for which he went down to Nazareth, to escape from Archelaus, the son of Herod.c My reason for not leaving this out is that Marcion's Christ ought by rights to have forsworn all association even with the places frequented by the Creator's Christ, since he had all those towns of Judaea, which were not in the same way conveyed over to the Creator's Christ by the prophets. But Christ has to be the Christ of the prophets, wherever it is that he is found to accord with the prophets. Even at Nazareth there is no indication that his preaching was of anything new, though for all that, by reason of one single proverb, we are told that he was cast out. Here, as I for the first time observe that hands were laid upon him, I am called upon to say something definite about his corporal substance; that he who admitted of contact, contact even full of violence, in being seized and captured and dragged even to the brow of the hill, cannot be thought of as a phantasm. It is true that he slipped away through the midst of them, but this was when he had experienced their violence, and had afterwards been let go: for, as often happens, the crowd gave way, or was even broken up: there is no question of its being deceived by invisibility, for this, if it had been such, would never have submitted to contact at all.

Touch or be touched nothing but body may,

is a worthy sentence even of this world's philosophy.d In fine, he did himself before long touch others, and by laying his hands upon them—hands evidently meant to be felt—conveyed the benefits of healing, benefits no less true, no less free from pretence, than the hands by which they were conveyed.
Now this is the paradox. In Luke of course the order is (a) Nazareth and then (b) Capernaum because of the last incident it would appear that the ordering is reversed. But it has to be noted that the bit about the "Nazarene" which starts chapter 8 is only tenuously associated with Nazareth. It fits much better as a carry over of the Capernaum synagogue narrative where "What do You have to do with us, Jesus—Nazarene?" is referenced but never discussed in chapter 7. I will argue, as I always argue, that Against Marcion wasn't just a commentary on the Marcionite gospel as Luke but actually the arguments from this treatise went into the development of Luke. Namely that the name "Nazarene" had to be explained. So what we see in what follows is an attempt to make "Nazarene" mean "of Nazareth" so the arguments from Matthew:
But to Christ the appellation of Nazarene was to apply because of his hiding-place in infancy, for which he went down to Nazareth, to escape from Archelaus, the son of Herod.c My reason for not leaving this out is that Marcion's Christ ought by rights to have forsworn all association even with the places frequented by the Creator's Christ, since he had all those towns of Judaea, which were not in the same way conveyed over to the Creator's Christ by the prophets. But Christ has to be the Christ of the prophets, wherever it is that he is found to accord with the prophets.
Remember at the beginning of Against Marcion we are told that the text has been rewritten THREE TIMES. So in the third rewrite - our present text - we have Irenaeus/Tertullian arguing from Luke or at least a proto-Luke that not only does "Nazarene" mean "of Nazareth" but that the narrative continues from Capernaum to Nazareth and that it is "just convenient" now that the proverb PROVING THAT JESUS WAS FROM NAZARETH FOLLOWS:
Even at Nazareth there is no indication that his preaching was of anything new, though for all that, by reason of one single proverb, we are told that he was cast out.
Are the "Marcionists" really claiming here that because Tertullian "cites" the material which have (a) Jesus born in Nazareth and (b) he and his parents "well known" to the people there that BY THIS METHODOLOGY ALL OF WHAT IS CITED IS IN THE MARCIONITE GOSPEL? This is fucking stupid. It is obvious, as I have shown, that the discussion of "Nazareth" popped up because of "Nazarene" in the previous narrative. But let's also note that it serves the purpose of making it ludicrous to suppose that Jesus was a supernatural being because everyone "knows him" Nazareth. That was Irenaeus's masterstroke. Jesus is "of Nazareth" because of the "Nazarene" reference in the synagogue but by placing the passing through and flying narrative in Nazareth the town where everyone knows him JESUS CAN'T BE A SUPERNATURAL BEING. Here is what immediately follows again:
Here, as I for the first time observe that hands were laid upon him, I am called upon to say something definite about his corporal substance; that he who admitted of contact, contact even full of violence, in being seized and captured and dragged even to the brow of the hill, cannot be thought of as a phantasm. It is true that he slipped away through the midst of them, but this was when he had experienced their violence, and had afterwards been let go: for, as often happens, the crowd gave way, or was even broken up: there is no question of its being deceived by invisibility, for this, if it had been such, would never have submitted to contact at all.
And the material from Luke which I say was developed from Against Marcion's transformation of "Nazareth" from "Nazarene":
22 All spoke well of him and were amazed at the gracious words that came from his lips. “Isn’t this Joseph’s son?” they asked.

23 Jesus said to them, “Surely you will quote this proverb to me: ‘Physician, heal yourself!’ And you will tell me, ‘Do here in your hometown what we have heard that you did in Capernaum.’”

24 “Truly I tell you,” he continued, “no prophet is accepted in his hometown. 25 I assure you that there were many widows in Israel in Elijah’s time, when the sky was shut for three and a half years and there was a severe famine throughout the land. 26 Yet Elijah was not sent to any of them, but to a widow in Zarephath in the region of Sidon. 27 And there were many in Israel with leprosy[g] in the time of Elisha the prophet, yet not one of them was cleansed—only Naaman the Syrian.”

28 All the people in the synagogue were furious when they heard this. 29 They got up, drove him out of the town, and took him to the brow of the hill on which the town was built, in order to throw him off the cliff. 30 But he walked right through the crowd and went on his way.
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

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But hold on! There is more. We know the Marcionites didn't identify the passing through the crowd narrative and flying with "Nazareth" because Ephrem tells us that it was called "Bethsaida" by them. WOW!! right? So these systematizers who want to let Tertullian be the "roadmap" for the Marcionite gospel have to say:

1. the Marcionite gospel had Jesus rejected at Nazareth
2. the Marcionites held that Jesus was known by people at Nazareth through his family
3. that when he passed through the crowds it was not as a phantasm but as a historical figure known to all because this happened at Nazareth

EVEN THOUGH EPHREM TELLS US HE FLEW AND IT WASN'T AT NAZARETH BUT A PLACE CALLED "BETH SAIDA." Why is that "experts" on Marcionism? Why is this the right choice to ignore Ephrem and choose Tertullian? The answer is obvious. If you choose Ephrem we can't use Tertullian to reconstruct the gospel of Marcion and we save thousands of trees from printing this idiotic theory and abuse of scholarship.
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

But hold on! There is more. We know the Marcionites didn't identify the passing through the crowd narrative and flying with "Nazareth" because Ephrem tells us that it was called "Bethsaida" by them. WOW!! right? So these systematizers who want to let Tertullian be the "roadmap" for the Marcionite gospel have to say:

1. the Marcionite gospel had Jesus rejected at Nazareth
2. the Marcionites held that Jesus was known by people at Nazareth through his family
3. that when he passed through the crowds it was not as a phantasm but as a historical figure known to all because this happened at Nazareth

EVEN THOUGH EPHREM TELLS US HE FLEW AND IT WASN'T AT NAZARETH BUT A PLACE CALLED "BETH SAIDA." Why is that "experts" on Marcionism? Why is this the right choice to ignore Ephrem and choose Tertullian? The answer is obvious. If you choose Ephrem we can't use Tertullian to reconstruct the gospel of Marcion and we save thousands of trees from printing this idiotic theory and abuse of scholarship.
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

But you see this is how the Marcionite scholars hold us up for ransom. It's because they are religious minded or come from that mindset that they face these existential crises every time they question anything. "If you don't believe in this God doesn't exist." "if you lose your faith you won't have anything." But look plainly at the problem.

Is it likely that the text of Against Marcion with its "descent into Galilee" being confirmed by Old Testament prophesies is found in the Marcionite gospel? You'd have to believe that the Marcionite either had this reading and Papias or someone "found" a scriptural passage to prove that Galilee was foretold or (as I would have it) the "dominical logoi" gospel chose the Galilean descent because of some Old Testament scriptures they liked.

Is it likely that the Syriac text having the Marcionite gospel begin in Judea is wrong because "we can be so sure of the reliability of the Church Fathers"? Well the Church Fathers weren't particularly reliable especially about their enemies. It is entirely possible they wouldn't tell us the truth about the Marcionites. After all some of them say Marcion had a gospel of Mark, others that he was John's secretary. What are the odds that he also had a gospel of Luke. It's entirely possible the Syriac text is right.

Is it likely that Against Marcion segues from a reference of Jesus being a "Nazarene" explaining it by means of "of Nazareth" and then "just so happens" to find proof in the literal next scene of Jesus being recognized to be "of Nazareth" means the Marcionite gospel had Jesus "of Nazareth" just because Tertullian tell us so? No I believe that Luke was shaped by Against Marcion more than Against Marcion was following the Marcionite gospel. The Marcionite gospel did not have Jesus "of Nazareth" because we are told by every report Jesus came down from heaven. As such he didn't have a home. The "of Nazareth" stuff was inserted into Luke as part of Against Marcion's struggle to explain Marcionism.

Is it likely that the Syriac tradition's understanding of the passing through AND FLYING narrative not only took place in Judea but that the passing through and flying narrative took place in a place called "Beth Saida" which necessarily also had to have been in Judea was wrong merely because Tertullian spends to much time telling us that it had to be in Galilee because of the dominical logoi? Fuck off this is stupid. I am tired of pretending that I have nothing but contempt for these people. No, there is no reason to deny the Syriac tradition at the expense of this obvious nonsense in Tertullian.

But we all know that "Bethsaida" in Galilee right? We know this because the orthodox gospels tell us this. Right? Ummm. They also tell us of another place called "beth saida" = Jerusalem which happens to go back to the gnostic interest in the temple being a "house of demons" from the Solomonic literature. Oh boy ... we have to choose again between the orthodox gospels, the Church Fathers on the one hand and the Marcionites and the heretics on the other FOR WHAT THE MARCIONITE GOSPEL UNDOUBTEDLY SAID. Gee. What should we do? Give up on Tertullian or choose Marcion to explain Marcion ... Don't ... know ... what ... to ... do ...
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

Bethsaida in Judea https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pool_of_Bethesda Oh boy a pool of water where demons are. Why would Jesus want to draw attention to Solomon bottling demons and putting them in the Jerusalem temple. Can't see a reason why Marcion would want to draw attention to this story. He would certainly rather have the flying scene take place in a nonexistent or not well known Galilean fishing village. Oh but wait a minute. How could Jesus have been at a sufficient height to have a crowd want to push him off a precipice IN A FUCKING FISHING VILLAGE WHICH BY ITS VERY NATURE CAN'T BE AT A HIGH ALTITUDE (because fishing villages necessarily have to be at the same level as the fucking water of the lake or sea in order for the idiot fishermen to fish). Again ... this ... is ... too ... difficult ... brain ... breaking ... down.
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Ulan »

I already wondered when Ephrem would come up. Does Klinghardt talk about him?

Anyway, "descending" was already used in the OT for coming down from the hill country to the plains, like here (1 Chronicles 7:21, NRSV):
"21 ... and Ezer and Elead. Now the people of Gath, who were born in the land, killed them, because they came down to raid their cattle."

Serves them right for skipping this whole Egypt business. This just as an aside.


Good to know that many people seem to know exactly what happened. :lol:
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

So option 1. the bullshit which appears in Luke (in an inverted ordering in Against Marcion because the author is trying to explain why Jesus is called "Nazarene" in Capernaum) we have a descent into Galilee as per the prophets and a 50 km walk for non-supernatural, non-flying and non-passing through crowds Jesus.

DOMINCAL GOSPEL OPENING "LUKE" (PRETENDING TO BE THE MARCIONITE GOSPEL)

Image

and option 2 then in the actual Marcionite gospel we have a descent into Judea (as Irenaeus, Origen and Syriac sources confirm) by a supernatural guy who descends, passes through crowds and flies again because he's a god is less than 10 km for a flying guy.

THE ACTUAL MARCIONITE GOSPEL BEGINNING

Image

The reader can choose which seems more reasonable TO BE THE MARCIONITE GOSPEL (not the more reasonable narrative they always win with a "historical Jesus"). It is obvious which scene naturally follows the next. After all the place which provided the "red earth" for Adam necessarily connects us back to Paradise.
Last edited by Secret Alias on Wed May 31, 2023 12:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

And as I've said before. We know that Jesus came during a Jubilee. That's why it is called a gospel. The Jubilee is announced during Yom Kippur. What did the Jews do during Yom Kippur which fits in with "things said about Jesus over and over again by the Church Fathers about Jesus." Tick tock. Tick tock. Answer: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scapegoat

In other words, the gospel narrative has the Jews pushing Jesus off the cliff BECAUSE HE IS MADE INTO THE SCAPEGOAT.

"Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us."
"Paul complicates the picture when he brings in a metaphor for the saving death of Jesus. To do this he draws on another kind of curse, the metaphysical curse of sin that, in Leviticus 16, is laid upon the scapegoat. Paul conflates (combines) the non-transferable curse of Deuteronomy with the transferable curse of Leviticus when he says: “Christ redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us—for it is written, 'Cursed is everyone ... The scapegoat is also accursed. It is treated as repulsive, is spat upon, stabbed, and cursed14 before being driven out of the community, carrying away with it the community's sin or curse. This is a very primitive ritual.
It wasn't Paul who "conflated" crucifixion with the scapegoat. That was the orthodox editor of our canon. The original Galatians just had the scapegoat because - as the Marcionite noted - Paul wrote both the gospel and the letters - so he was explaining his gospel by means of these letters.

So in the ACTUAL GOSPEL OF MARCION the bald statement about "The beginning of the gospel of Jesus" is "explained" by the descent into Judea and the appearance in "Beth saida" i.e. Jerusalem during Yom Kippur on a Jubilee. Hence the message that Jesus sent was properly called a "evangelion."1 Where after announcing the "Antitheses" (Marcion's version of Matt 5:17 - 44 which Irenaeus confirms Marcion used) and sending the "evil demons" out of the priest or whomever it was that was healed the crowds try to push Jesus over the cliff as the scapegoat and end up passing through him and plunging into the abyss below. That was the actual beginning of the Marcionite gospel. It had nothing (or little) to do with Luke and nothing to do with Galilee.

1 in the Samaritan Arabic commentary on the Torah, on Leviticus 25:9. Slightly condensed and slightly re-arranged translation from my life long friend it seems Ruaridh Boid formerly of Monash University: "The High Priest and the King acting together are to send heralds out on the Day of Atonement (i.e. the tenth of the seventh month) to go into all countries over the next six months blowing the shofar in every land and region [not just Canaan] with the announcement [= bashâ’ir, plural of bashîrah] of the information of the approach of the Jubilee Year and the release of captives so that it reaches the whole nation”. Hence the "gospel" begins at Yom Kippur.
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