No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
Secret Alias
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

The Marcionite gospel has 'Man' reappear at the place 'man' (= Adam) was fashioned. Obviously establishing (a) 'Jesus' as a god and 'Man' and (b) his teleological 'purpose' in the gospel i.e. to rescue the physical man who was made after his image. Many people don't like that obvious fact so they make up bullshit to distract us from it. That's cool.
In Jesus’ time the 25 km-long Jericho-Jerusalem road was notorious for its danger and difficulty. The road is most renowned for its appearance in the parable of the Good Samaritan (Luke 10:25-37), which is commemorated today by a building known as the Good Samaritan Inn, or Khan al-Ahmar. This building is an Ottoman hostel (caravanserai) located on the south side of the main highway from Jericho to Jerusalem, 10 km east of Jerusalem, on the site of an earlier, sixth-century Byzantine inn that also marked the place of the parable. In fact, the earliest archaeological findings on the site date back to the days of the Second Temple period (first century C.E.). In Jesus’ time, the site had apparently functioned as a way station for travelers, which it remained through the Byzantine era, the Crusades, and the Ottoman era.
The name of the place where 'Jesus' descended probably has something to do with the creation of Adam:

Image

https://waynestiles.com/blog/the-ascent ... s-than-one

On the relationship between the name 'Adam' and 'red' and this area
The first, most basic word is dam. Klein writes that it is "one of the few biradical nouns in Hebrew." (We've also seen delet and keshet among others.)

From dam we get adom - according to Klein meaning "the color of blood".

Adama (ground, soil, earth, land) derives from adom - originally meaning "the red arable ground".

Lastly, adam, Klein writes, properly means "the one formed from adama אדמה, the ground." He points out there is a similar development in Latin, where homo (man, source of "human") is related to humus (ground) - the source of exhume (to take out of the ground) and humble (lowly, "on the ground").

From adom, we get such words as odem אודם - lipstick, maadim מאדים - Mars (the red planet) and the nation of Edom.https://www.balashon.com/2006/08/adom.html
On the 'redness' of the earth here (and it's suitability for the creation of both 'Adam' and 'Edom' the red one(s):

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https://hebrew.jerusalemprayerteam.org/edom/

On the continued association of this region with the creation of Adam cf.
Cyril's account of Euthymius's wanderings was not simply a story of the colonization of the desert of the holy city ; Euthymius's adventures were also presented as a mythical tale of the restoration of a pristine state in which human beings were no longer subject to the hegemony of sin . Euthymius is a second Adam and an image of the new creation. Among his gifts , writes Cyril , was authority over wild animals and snakes , for when God " dwells or comes to rest in a certain human being all things are subject to him [ or her ] as they were before Adam transgressed the commandment of God ... After traveling around the Judean desert , Euthymius returned to the vicinity of Jerusalem frustrated , it seems . No matter how deeply he withdrew into the desert he always attracted a crowd . Finally he decided to settle in a cave a few miles east of Jerusalem ( present - day Mishor Adumim on the West Bank ) not too far from Theoctistus's monastery . Although it was less isolated than the places he had visited , it was to become his permanent home . It may have been chosen because of its proximity to Jerusalem or simply because Euthymius was very fond of the site .
https://books.google.com/books?id=R5R9N ... on&f=false
I think Euthymius was a neo-Marcionite or dialed into the neo-Marcionite tradition.
Secret Alias
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

On a separate note why does the gospel always speak of Jesus "ascending" to Jerusalem?
Secret Alias
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

Maybe this ?

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schillingklaus
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by schillingklaus »

Kreuzerin fails foolishly to see that Caphernahum must be understood symbolically, not literally as apologists try to force mankind to believe.

Only dunces believe in the Harnackian propaganda of an anywhere near complete Mk. More critical people like JG Eichhorn already realized in the times of the French revolution that Mk was late piecemeal, and that was not nowhere near a mythicist.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by neilgodfrey »

Secret Alias wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 7:20 amBut if historians came upon the widespread reporting to this effect they might take for granted this 'fact.'
Serious historians don't work that way. They interpret their sources, they analyze them, subject them to "literary analysis" and look for evidence that will indicate context and provenance of scribe and real and implied author, and so forth. The days when historians could get away with naive readings of sources are long gone (except maybe among some quarters of biblical studies.)
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

schillingklaus wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:15 pm Kreuzerin fails foolishly to see that Caphernahum must be understood symbolically, not literally as apologists try to force mankind to believe.
On the contrary, Kreuzerin understands Caphernaum in GMark as symbolically, which schillingklaus apparently is unable to get.

However, Kreuzerin has so far preferred the view that Capharnaum in GMark is to understood as the "village of Nahum", betting that schillingklaus has no idea why one might do so.
Kunigunde Kreuzerin
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Mon Oct 24, 2022 9:25 am The important note 8 reads:

Le glissement de sens pourrait provenir de ce qu'en hébreu et en araméen, selon qu'on orthographie Caper avec un cof ou Kaper (ou kfar) avec un kaf, le mot peut vouloir dire: dans le premier cas “désolation” ou “expiation”, dans le second cas “bourg”.

It is not easy for me to understand Wautier's argument because he only argues with the first part of the word. Or am I missing something?

What about Nahum? If Wautiers is right, the village would have to be called "Nahum's Desolation" or "Desert of Consolation" ... :scratch:
schillingklaus
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by schillingklaus »

Some cranks believe that prophet Nahum's home village Elchesa had been renamed on his behalf to Capernahum.

Whatever KK thinks about Capernahum, it is influenced by the heresy that Mk was the first gospel mentioning Jesus at Capernahum, denying that "Heracleon", if even a person, was potentially closer to the original plot.

The etymology of mani* proves once more that Manicheism is not named for a historical founder named Mani but for its content, which involved the veneration of some ideal paracletic figure.
Secret Alias
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

The Acts of Archelaus show clearly Mani was a title not his proper name. Whether or not the name means Paraclete (while my suggestion) is up for debate.
Secret Alias
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Re: No "Descending" - The Myth About Marcion's Incipit

Post by Secret Alias »

Serious historians don't work that way.
Bullshit. Everyone takes for granted that Capernaum is at the beginning of the Marcionite gospel even though "Marcion" says otherwise. They prefer familiar sources (Tertullian) over ones written in languages they can't read (Syriac).
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