List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

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Giuseppe
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Giuseppe »

A curiosity: the Book of Judith is dated by Treves under Hadrian: Nebuchadnezzar would be Hadrian, Holofernes would be Julius Severus (Hadrian's general) and Bethulia would be Bethar, the last refuge of Bar-Kokhba.
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Giuseppe
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:13 amThe desolation itself, though, is more likely Hadrian's work. In due time I hope to be blogging details.
while expecting your complete case, I would observe that the interpolation of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

...assumes a historicist Gospel-based context and in the same time the imminent destruction of the Jews under Hadrian, i.e. the interpolator was reporting what he knew was an imminent contemporary episode: the wrath of god falling "upon them at last".
andrewcriddle
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by andrewcriddle »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:01 am The Treves's book is arrived. I read the following quote from pseudoHyppolitus;

Ce n'est pas Vespasian qui installa l'idole dans le Temple; c'est la légion de Trajan. Quiétus, le chef des Romains, y a érigé la statue appelée César.

The references to wars and between kingdoms in Mark 13: Caligula, Vespasian and Hadrian didn't wars against other kingdoms. Trajan did wars in Dacia, Nabatea, Armenia and Mesopotamia and Parthia. More kingdoms than so!

As to the reference to 'false Christs":
  • 'Christ' means 'king'.
  • Lukuas is the only rebel called by Eusebius with the title of 'king'. Not even Bar-Kokhba was called 'king' but Nasi Israel (President of Israel). Being Lukuas a contemporary of Trajan, then the point is made that the abomination of desolation is the idol placed by Trajan in the site of the temple, giving an independent confirmation to Hyppolytus's claim.
The passages allegedly from Hippolytus are here
There is an interesting discussion Jewish War
Obe should note that some scholars e.g., Brent would date Hippolytus against Gaius/Caius later than the 3rd century.

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 5:24 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:13 amThe desolation itself, though, is more likely Hadrian's work. In due time I hope to be blogging details.
while expecting your complete case, I would observe that the interpolation of 1 Thessalonians 2:14-16

For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews 15 who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone 16 in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last.

...assumes a historicist Gospel-based context and in the same time the imminent destruction of the Jews under Hadrian, i.e. the interpolator was reporting what he knew was an imminent contemporary episode: the wrath of god falling "upon them at last".
You are probably aware of Joseph Turmel's view that 2 Thess 2 had Simon bar Kokhba in mind: https://vridar.org/2011/05/31/identifyi ... salonians/
ABuddhist
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by ABuddhist »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:41 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:34 pm
neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 3:34 pm
Yes, I am assuming that there were Christians based in the Greek world during the early second century. The Book of Revelation, if written in the time of Hadrian as I strongly suspect it was, testifies to Christians of long-standing in Asia Minor, so presumably since at least the late first century.

(Even if the Pliny persecutions were not historical, that would still stand.)

OK. Cool
(though I wonder about the nature of 'Christians' before Hadrian, but that'd be more off-topic & I don't think it's a worthwhile exercise at present)

FWIW, Alan Garrow has recently argued "that the imagery of Revelation is richly and directly informed by recent reports of the eruption of Vesuvius. This has consequences not only for our understanding of the relationship between the visions of Revelation and the events of history but also for our estimate of the date at which Revelation was composed." https://www.alangarrow.com/bntc-2022---revelation.html
Yes, I have heard of the Mount Vesuvius explanation but find Witulski's thesis overrides it because of the cogency with which it aligns the historical events of the early second century with the chapters on the 7 churches, the four horsemen, the beast and false prophet, the two witnesses and measuring the temple. Setting the time of Rev to the generation of Vesuvius would raise more questions than it answers, I think.
To this I would add that even if we assume that the parallels were accurate, that does not necessarily mean that Rev was written soon after Vesuvius's eruption. Rather, it could have been using the parallel from a later time, either due to popular cultural osmosis (akin to the strong association of mushroom clouds with nuclear disaster decades after Hiroshima) or due to consulting Pliny for suitably apocalyptic imagery. Rev is nothing if it is not intertextual.
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