List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

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Giuseppe
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List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Giuseppe »

Unfortunately, only Detering is mentioned as a proponent of a such dating. Until now I have found the following reasons, but I would like to update it:
  • Mark 13 (arguments on this);
  • Mary Magdalene is mentioned, which betrayes knowledge of late simonianism (Magdalene being the Helen/Sophia saved by Simon Magus);
  • The partition of the garments by soldiers is formalized officially only with Hadrian.
  • If prof Witulski is correct about Revelation's 666 == Hadrian, then the "abomination of desolation" of Mark 13 is probably also Hadrian.
  • if prof Klinghardt is correct about Mark being a reaction to Mcn, then Mark is from hadrianic age.
  • The episode of Simon of Cyrene betrayes a polemic against Basilides, lived during the Hadrianic age.
  • no independent evidence of the existence of GMark until the mid second century
  • ideological portrayal of Pharisees is unhistorical but explicable in a post 135 rivαlry context given the paucity of evidence for rabbinic movement until then (the yavneh post 70 tradition notwithstanding)
  • were Christian Jews actually persecuted during the Bar Kochba war? Mark is a persecution gospel.
  • Men as Trees" assumes knowledge of Simon Magus (the Magus claimed that the "man is only a tree").
Last edited by Giuseppe on Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:25 am, edited 2 times in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by neilgodfrey »

no independent evidence of the existence of GMark until the mid second century

ideological portrayal of Pharisees is unhistorical but explicable in a post 135 rivαlry context given the paucity of evidence for rabbinic movement until then (the yavneh post 70 tradition notwithstanding)

more certainty that false messiahs had arisen post 70 (arguable that the Josephan figures are not depicted as pseudo messiahs), and widespread violence of 115-117 and Trajan's wars and preps for war -- fits scenario of Mark 13's false messiahs and wars and rumours of wars

post 135 allows for time for a "new Israel" narrative to gestate and mature in wake of 70 so that by time of 135 the personification of the ideal Israel was "ready to go" (GMark's Jesus makes no historical or narrative sense; only makes sense as a metaphor, "parable"). Also more time to read and digest and adapt Josephus by then. (Also Galilee appears to have escaped the punishment Hadrian inflicted on Judea.)

were Christian Jews actually persecuted during the Bar Kochba war? Mark is a persecution gospel.

-- I'd like to say that after the Jews were banished from Jerusalem a Christian cleric named Mark was established at a church boss there- -- but that's probably going a tad too far.
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Giuseppe
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:42 pm were Christian Jews actually persecuted during the Bar Kochba war? Mark is a persecution gospel.
this point has to be revalued. The possible forgery of Pliny the Younger would move us to think that the persecutors were the Romans, when really they could well be the same Jews of Bar-Kokhba.

Along the same lines, only Lublinski had pointed out that the reason James the Just was identified (correctly or wrongly) with the James mentioned in Antiquities 20:200 could be that he was considered a too much heterodox Jew by Ananus. The persecutors originally were only Jews even in the eyes of a Christian forger.

This is even emphasized by the fact that Josephus himself writes that Albinus was absent when James was stoned.
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Kunigunde Kreuzerin »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:23 pm Mary Magdalene is mentioned, which betrayes knowledge of late simonianism (Magdalene being the Helen/Sophia saved by Simon Magus)
Mark's Mary Magdalene is just a failed watcher. In GMark, she has nothing to do with the character that later Gospels and Apocrypha developed from her and nothing with Helen or Sophia. She is in opposition to the unnamed woman in GMark 14, who arrives in time to anoint Jesus with spikenard perfume before his death. (Songs 1:12 "While the king sat at his table, My spikenard sent forth its fragrance.")

Mary Magdalene observes everything very closely, but then comes much too late. Mark's successors, including Marcion, have attempted to blend the characters of both women to introduce historical witnesses, which unfortunately has been successful.

In GMark, the unnamed woman is the lily and Mary Magdalene is one the thorns. (Of course nobody has to worry about that who is not interested in the content of the texts anyway)
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Giuseppe
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Giuseppe »

Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:12 am Mark's Mary Magdalene is just a failed watcher. In GMark, she has nothing to do with the character that later Gospels and Apocrypha developed from her and nothing with Helen or Sophia.
nothing from Helen/Sophia, sure? The episode of Simon the Leper may be a veiled attack against Simon Magus (decribed indeed as a leper in legends about him), hence the unnamed woman may be just Magdalene. The corollary is that Jesus is so powerful that even the female disciple of the Magus followed him.
In addition, Mary Magdalene is a pun on Magdi-Helen: "Helen by long hair", i. e. Helen of Troy, the same disciple woman of the Magus.
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Giuseppe
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Giuseppe »

I should add another item:
  • Men as Trees" assumes knowledge of Simon Magus (the Magus claimed that the "man is only a tree").
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:10 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:42 pm were Christian Jews actually persecuted during the Bar Kochba war? Mark is a persecution gospel.
this point has to be revalued. The possible forgery of Pliny the Younger would move us to think that the persecutors were the Romans, when really they could well be the same Jews of Bar-Kokhba.

Along the same lines, only Lublinski had pointed out that the reason James the Just was identified (correctly or wrongly) with the James mentioned in Antiquities 20:200 could be that he was considered a too much heterodox Jew by Ananus. The persecutors originally were only Jews even in the eyes of a Christian forger.

This is even emphasized by the fact that Josephus himself writes that Albinus was absent when James was stoned.
Even if the Pliny-Trajan-Christian correspondence is genuine, we should add that to pressure Christians were made to face in the Greek world as a result of Hadrian's revamped policy of "hyper" emperor worship. One can refer to Witulski again for this point: https://vridar.org/2022/09/15/list-of-v ... evelation/
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by MrMacSon »

Some comments

1. The title of this thread is inappropriate: In the Opening Post, Guiseppe has not provide a list of arguments, he's mostly provided a list of propositions (or premises) on which to base arguments (and is some cases the points are simply assertions or merely abstract concepts or even two loosely conflated abstract concepts) eg.
  • The episode of Simon of Cyrene betrays a polemic against Basilides, lived during the Hadrianic age.
  • "Men as Trees" assumes knowledge of Simon Magus (the Magus claimed that the "man is only a tree").

    (I doubt we have any evidence the 'the Magus' ever 'claimed' anything: we only have narratives about 'him')

This -
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 2:10 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:42 pm were Christian Jews actually persecuted during the Bar Kochba war? Mark is a persecution gospel.
This point has to be revalued. The possible forgery of Pliny the Younger would move us to think that the persecutors were the Romans, when really they could well be the same Jews of Bar-Kokhba.
- is illogical. In several ways eg. it refers to Pliny's letter to Trajan as a forgery then assumes its true but not really b/c its 'truth' applies to something else.


Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:12 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Nov 05, 2022 10:23 pm Mary Magdalene is mentioned, which betrays knowledge of late Simonianism (Magdalene being the Helen/Sophia saved by Simon Magus)
Mark's Mary Magdalene is just a failed watcher. In GMark, she has nothing to do with the character that later Gospels and Apocrypha developed from her and nothing with Helen or Sophia. She is in opposition to the unnamed woman in GMark 14, who arrives in time to anoint Jesus with spikenard perfume before his death. (Songs 1:12 "While the king sat at his table, My spikenard sent forth its fragrance.")

Mary Magdalene observes everything very closely, but then comes much too late. Mark's successors, including Marcion, have attempted to blend the characters of both women to introduce historical witnesses, which unfortunately has been successful.

In GMark, the unnamed woman is the lily and Mary Magdalene is one the thorns. (Of course nobody has to worry about that who is not interested in the content of the texts anyway)

Kunigunde makes some good points about Mary Magdalene. But I'm not sure if she's saying G.Mark's Mary M has nothing to do with Helen or Sophia; or if all the Gospels' - G.Mark's, the later Gospels and the Apocryphal Gospels' Marys- have nothing to do with Helen or Sophia (?)

Giuseppe seems to make a good point:
Giuseppe wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 6:22 am
Kunigunde Kreuzerin wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 5:12 am Mark's Mary Magdalene is just a failed watcher. In GMark, she has nothing to do with the character that later Gospels and Apocrypha developed from her and nothing with Helen or Sophia.
Nothing from Helen/Sophia? Sure? The episode of Simon the Leper may be a veiled attack against Simon Magus (described indeed as a leper in legends about him), hence the unnamed woman may be just Magdalene. The corollary is that Jesus is so powerful that even the female disciple of the Magus followed him.

In addition, Mary Magdalene is a pun on Magdi-Helen: "Helen by long hair" i.e. Helen of Troy, the same disciple woman of the Magus.

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MrMacSon
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by MrMacSon »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 10:02 am Even if the Pliny-Trajan-Christian correspondence is genuine, we should add that to pressure Christians were made to face in the Greek world as a result of Hadrian's revamped policy of "hyper" emperor worship. One can refer to Witulski again for this point: https://vridar.org/2022/09/15/list-of-v ... evelation/
yeah, Nah.

re -
pressure Christians were made to face in the Greek world as a result of Hadrian's revamped policy of "hyper" emperor worship
- is that an assumption or a proposition??
  • A proposition(?) as in:
    • "pressure Christians [might have been] made to face in the Greek world as a result of Hadrian's revamped policy of "hyper" emperor worship" ??

Even if 'genuine' the Pliny-Trajan-Christian correspondence might have referred to followers of other cults who might have been or indeed were known as 'Christians':
  • followers of Serapis, if Hadrian's letter to his relative Servianus, said to have been preserved by the historian Vopiscus in his Life of the Tyrant Saturninus, is genuine

    "Those who worship Serapis are likewise Christians; even those who style themselves the bishops of Christ are devoted to Serapis. The very Patriarch himself, when he comes to Egypt, is forced by some to adore Serapis, by others to worship Christ. There is but one God for them all, Him do the Christians, Him do the Jews, Him do the Gentiles, all alike worship."

  • Simon the Samarian (aka Simon Magus(?)) is said to have been known as Christ (Litwa, i]Found Christianities[/i], 2002), so Simonians may have been known as Christians (Litwa +/- others date this Simon to the middle third of the first century AD/CE)
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neilgodfrey
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by neilgodfrey »

MrMacSon wrote: Sun Nov 06, 2022 1:05 pm
pressure Christians were made to face in the Greek world as a result of Hadrian's revamped policy of "hyper" emperor worship
- is that an assumption or a proposition??
  • A proposition(?) as in:
    • "pressure Christians [might have been] made to face in the Greek world as a result of Hadrian's revamped policy of "hyper" emperor worship" ??
It's "a fact". Hadrian revamped emperor worship to unprecedented levels in the Greek world. All homes were required to have a shrine to the emperor for offerings/sacrifices. https://vridar.org/2022/04/18/emperor-w ... evelation/ This was usually placed at the entrance of the house and as an imperial procession passed by people were expected to respond by attending to their household shrine. It was not easy to hide one's refusal to do so.

Hadrian did not, as other emperors had for the most part done, oversee worship of himself alongside a god, but he identified himself as Zeus himself: https://vridar.org/2022/05/28/hadrian-the-god/

Hadrian, like Nero, was wildly popular with "the people", especially the Greeks. And Jews, too, before the war, appear to have highly honoured him.

Hadrian is known as the "traveling emperor", but those travels were not mere site-seeing excursions. Every place he entered responded to him as the epiphany of a god making his "parousia" to them. His stay with them guaranteed them "salvation" - and he often left coins depicting his ongoing "presence" as their saviour god still abiding with them.

That level and extent of emperor worship was unprecedented.

I should add: some historians have seen in the evidence of the geographic spread of the Jewish uprisings under Trajan (along with key personalities associated with them, and the types of destruction they wreaked (especially on pagan temples), and some of the literature of the time, that there were real hopes among Jews for a rebuilding of the Temple and messianic restoration.
Last edited by neilgodfrey on Sun Nov 06, 2022 4:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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