List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

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andrewcriddle
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by andrewcriddle »

neilgodfrey wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 8:35 pm
andrewcriddle wrote: Sat Nov 12, 2022 5:10 am The uniformity surely merely implies that manufacturers of imperial shrines had some formal or informal guidelines to work with.

Andrew Criddle
S. R. F. Price sees a little more than "mere" convenience for the masons. In Rituals and Power, p. 112:
The involvement of the whole community was also expressed by the regulation that householders should sacrifice on altars outside their houses as the procession passed.74 This practice, which was followed in the Hellenistic period for cults both of gods and of rulers, may also be detected in the imperial cult. Long series of small imperial altars have been found at Athens, Sparta, Miletus, Mytilene and Pergamum. In any given city the series of altars is relatively uniform in its dedication, but diverse in its actual details of design and execution, and this is only explicable on the assumption that the city passed a decree instructing all citizens to provide their own altars.
More detail is given by Veyne, Paul. “Les Honneurs Posthumes de Flavia Domitilla et Les Dédicaces Grecques et Latines.” Latomus 21, no. 1 (1962): 49–98. I said earlier we have no explicit inscription indicating the compulsory nature of the shrines for Hadrian but I don't know all the sources and Veyne does cite inscriptions in another time that point to the compulsory nature of the decree:

Mais leur grand nombre et l'uniformité de leur libellé prouvent, comme l'a dit Kolbe Í1), une décision collective : c'est un culte domestique organisé par la cité. Un décret hellénistique de Magnésie du Méandre (2) permet de comprendre, je crois, comment les choses se sont passées. Au deuxième siècle avant notre ère cette cité institue une fête annuelle d'Artémis Leucophryènè, et le décret prévoit qu'à cette occasion « chacun des habitants, selon ses ressources, offrira un sacrifice devant sa porte sur un autel qu'il y dressera» ; et que « ce sera une pieuse chose que ceux qui possèdent une maison ou une boutique élèvent, dans la mesure de leurs moyens, un autel devant la porte (...) où sera gravée l'inscription suivante : [autel) ď Artemis Leucophryene ; si quelqu'un ne le fait pas, il n'aura pas à s'en féliciter». Pareillement Athènes, Sparte ou Pergame ont dû prendre des décrets en l'honneur de l'empereur où les epicleseis de Conservateur, Fondateur de la ville et Zeus Eleutherios lui étaient décernées (ou plutôt « reconnues ») (3) et où il était vivement conseillé aux habitants d'élever au prince bienfaiteur de la cité des autels portant l'inscription que l'on sait. Ce culte domestique du souverain est souvent (4) un aspect du culte des évergètes : à My tilène Trajan ou Hadrien sont adorés comme l'avaient été Pompée, conservateur de la ville, et l'évergète Théophane. Où s'élevaient ces autels ? Les plus petits devaient être conservés dans la demeure ; à Pergame l'un d'eux a été trouvé dans la maison du consul Attalos. (p. 74)

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But their large number and the uniformity of their wording prove, as Kolbe has said (1), a collective decision: it is a domestic cult organized by the city. A Hellenistic decree of Magnesia of the Meander (2) makes it possible to understand, I believe, how things happened. In the second century BC this city established an annual feast of Artemis Leucophryènè, and the decree provides that on this occasion "each of the inhabitants, according to his resources, will offer a sacrifice in front of his door on an altar that he will erect there" ; and that “it will be a pious thing that those who have a house or a shop raise, within the limits of their means, an altar before the door (...) on which will be engraved the following inscription: [altar] ď Artemis Leucophryene ; if someone does not do it, he will not have to congratulate himself”. Similarly Athens, Sparta or Pergamon had to issue decrees in honor of the emperor where the epicleseis of Curator, Founder of the city and Zeus Eleutherios were awarded to him (or rather "recognized") (3) and where he was strongly advised the inhabitants to raise to the prince benefactor of the city altars bearing the inscription that we know. This domestic cult of the sovereign is often (4) an aspect of the cult of the euergetes: at My tilène Trajan or Hadrian are adored as had been Pompey, curator of the city, and the euergetes Theophanes. Where were these altars? The smaller ones were to be kept in the house; at Pergamon one of them was found in the house of Consul Attalos. (p.74)
Price cites other works as well.
Hi Neil

I still find the idea of compulsory cult of Hadrian surprising but you seem to be right. Thanks for the references you have provided.

I find it odd that AFAIK there are no records of Christians being denounced for non-compliance in this specific matter. (Non-possession of domestic imperial altars.)
There is a discussion about the imperial cult here which may imply that elite figures were much more likely to be in trouble over lack of enthusiasm for the imperial cult than were ordinary people.

Andrew Criddle
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neilgodfrey
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

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andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:16 am I find it odd that AFAIK there are no records of Christians being denounced for non-compliance in this specific matter. (Non-possession of domestic imperial altars.)
My interest in the whole thing began with Witulski's case for the Book of Revelation belonging to the Hadrianic era. If Revelation is any guide, one might imagine most affected Christians going along with what was expected of them by others and thinking that it was a political salute rather than a religious betrayal, given that they didn't believe in the gods anyway. Or possession of an altar was not an issue so long as one fumbled over the incense sticks and let a bystander do the honours at the moment the imperial procession passed by.
dbz
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

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andrewcriddle wrote: Sun Nov 13, 2022 6:16 am I find it odd that AFAIK there are no records of Christians being denounced for non-compliance in this specific matter. (Non-possession of domestic imperial altars.)
  • What time span do you expect was germane to "Christians being denounced for non-compliance" if the cult experienced a bottleneck in growth concurrent with transitioning from a purely celestial second-god to a historicized second-god?
Christians on Ikitsuki and neighboring islands, who were among the first to suffer, early on developed a way to preserve elements of their faith. Adopting a complex sham, they worshiped publicly at Buddhist temples, then slipped away at night to hold secret Christian prayer meetings. At home, they prayed overtly before Buddhist and Shinto altars, but their real altar became the nan do garni (closet god), innocuous-looking bundles of cloth in which revered Christian statues and medallions were hidden. For 2½ centuries, their fierce faith endured, but it inevitably also turned inward. Because their prayers and rituals had to be transmitted secretly among illiterate peasants, they slowly became garbled.
"Religion: Japan's Crypto-Christians". Time. 11 January 1982.
Last edited by dbz on Mon Nov 14, 2022 9:16 am, edited 1 time in total.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by neilgodfrey »

dbz wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 1:44 am
  • What time span do you expect was germane to "Christians being denounced for non-compliance" if the cult experienced a bottleneck in growth concurrent with transitioning from a purely celestial second-god to a historicized second-god?
Something seems awry with the editing of your post. Did you mean to ask the above question I have extracted from it?

If it was directed to me, I'm afraid I don't think I understand what it is exactly you are asking. Can you clarify?
dbz
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by dbz »

neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:06 am If it was directed to me, I'm afraid I don't think I understand what it is exactly you are asking. Can you clarify?
I removed the inadvertent
[quote][/quote]

Carrier opines that the second-god cult (i.e. Christians) may of experienced a growth bottleneck as attested by Pliny during his investigation of their cult. Many of those interrogated by Pliny said that they had previously left the cult.
  1. …Many counter-cultural Jewish sects were seeking hidden messages in scripture.
  2. …Cephas (Peter), a member or leader of one of those sects, had “visions” telling him one of those messages was now fulfilled.
  3. …That fellow influenced or inspired others to have or claim supporting visions.
  4. …They all died.
  5. …Then some later folks did what was done for all savior gods: they made up stories about their savior god to promote what was by then a lifetime of the accumulated teachings, dogmas, and beliefs of various movement leaders.
  6. …They all died.
Bottle Neck in growth occurs and the novelty of their second-god historicized on Earth is promoted by some cult members.
  • …Then some later folks started promoting those myths as historically true.
  • …Those who protested that, were denounced as heretics and agents of Satan.
  • …They all died.
  • …Those who liked the new invented version of history won total political power and used it to destroy all the literature of those who had ever protested it.
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:16 am
I find it odd that AFAIK there are no records of Christians being denounced for non-compliance in this specific matter. (Non-possession of domestic imperial altars.)
The anomaly of "no records" is explicable by a growth bottle-neck occurring in the cult.
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by neilgodfrey »

dbz wrote: Tue Nov 15, 2022 3:48 am
neilgodfrey wrote: Mon Nov 14, 2022 4:06 am If it was directed to me, I'm afraid I don't think I understand what it is exactly you are asking. Can you clarify?
I removed the inadvertent
[quote]



Carrier opines that the second-god cult (i.e. Christians) may of experienced a growth bottleneck as attested by Pliny during his investigation of their cult. Many of those interrogated by Pliny said that they had previously left the cult.
  1. …Many counter-cultural Jewish sects were seeking hidden messages in scripture.
  2. …Cephas (Peter), a member or leader of one of those sects, had “visions” telling him one of those messages was now fulfilled.
  3. …That fellow influenced or inspired others to have or claim supporting visions.
  4. …They all died.
  5. …Then some later folks did what was done for all savior gods: they made up stories about their savior god to promote what was by then a lifetime of the accumulated teachings, dogmas, and beliefs of various movement leaders.
  6. …They all died.
Bottle Neck in growth occurs and the novelty of their second-god historicized on Earth is promoted by some cult members.
  • …Then some later folks started promoting those myths as historically true.
  • …Those who protested that, were denounced as heretics and agents of Satan.
  • …They all died.
  • …Those who liked the new invented version of history won total political power and used it to destroy all the literature of those who had ever protested it.
andrewcriddle wrote: ↑Sun Nov 13, 2022 9:16 am
I find it odd that AFAIK there are no records of Christians being denounced for non-compliance in this specific matter. (Non-possession of domestic imperial altars.)
The anomaly of "no records" is explicable by a growth bottle-neck occurring in the cult.
[/quote]

Okay -- I see you were not asking me, but FWIW, I would reply that the "bottleneck" Carrier speaks of is based entirely upon his interpretation of Pliny's letter to Trajan -- in my view a questionable source and open to a variety of interpretations. Further, the evidence of Plny is itself a "record", and it does not speak of Christians failing to maintain household shrines of the emperor. So that letter is (arguably at least) an official record that leads us to conclude that Christians were not accused of not housing emperor-cult shrines in the time of Trajan.
Giuseppe
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Giuseppe »

The Treves's book is arrived. I read the following quote from pseudoHyppolitus;

Ce n'est pas Vespasian qui installa l'idole dans le Temple; c'est la légion de Trajan. Quiétus, le chef des Romains, y a érigé la statue appelée César.

The references to wars and between kingdoms in Mark 13: Caligula, Vespasian and Hadrian didn't wars against other kingdoms. Trajan did wars in Dacia, Nabatea, Armenia and Mesopotamia and Parthia. More kingdoms than so!

As to the reference to 'false Christs":
  • 'Christ' means 'king'.
  • Lukuas is the only rebel called by Eusebius with the title of 'king'. Not even Bar-Kokhba was called 'king' but Nasi Israel (President of Israel). Being Lukuas a contemporary of Trajan, then the point is made that the abomination of desolation is the idol placed by Trajan in the site of the temple, giving an independent confirmation to Hyppolytus's claim.
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neilgodfrey
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by neilgodfrey »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:01 am The Treves's book is arrived. I read the following quote from pseudoHyppolitus;

Ce n'est pas Vespasian qui installa l'idole dans le Temple; c'est la légion de Trajan. Quiétus, le chef des Romains, y a érigé la statue appelée César.

The references to wars and between kingdoms in Mark 13: Caligula, Vespasian and Hadrian didn't wars against other kingdoms. Trajan did wars in Dacia, Nabatea, Armenia and Mesopotamia and Parthia. More kingdoms than so!

As to the reference to 'false Christs":
  • 'Christ' means 'king'.
  • Lukuas is the only rebel called by Eusebius with the title of 'king'. Not even Bar-Kokhba was called 'king' but Nasi Israel (President of Israel). Being Lukuas a contemporary of Trajan, then the point is made that the abomination of desolation is the idol placed by Trajan in the site of the temple, giving an independent confirmation to Hyppolytus's claim.
Yes indeed. This is the line I have been looking at for a little while now. An Italian book by Capponi is especially enlightening in its analysis of the details of the Jewish revolts under Trajan and the various indications that messianic hopes played a significant part in them. I see those wars (and Lukuas is not the only messianic candidate) being the background to the "wars and rumours of wars" and "false christs" prophecy. The desolation itself, though, is more likely Hadrian's work. In due time I hope to be blogging details.
Giuseppe
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Giuseppe »

neilgodfrey wrote: Thu Nov 17, 2022 3:13 amand Lukuas is not the only messianic candidate
do you mean that other contemporary figures were called "kings"? Treves points out that Theudas was a prophet, not a king, differently from Simon and Athronges, who were kings but they preceded Pilate. So the uniqueness of Lukuas as bearer of the title of "king" is surprising.
Giuseppe
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Re: List of arguments to date Mark after Hadrian

Post by Giuseppe »

The "abomination of desolation" can't be Vespasian's army because the text says ἑστηκότα, "standing" in the sense of "being erected", hardly a reference to an entire army.
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