"You don't have to Practice to be Miserable"
The following Analysis is easy to challenge on any number of points. If this Analysis offends your sensibilities, move on. Save your Invectives for others. It may be possible, however, to follow a Consistent Thread with what is posited to be evidence to arrive at the following:
1. The Character "Hannah the Prophetess" in Luke ("Anna" if you wish) is to be identified with a Character covered in History. Her name is "Salome" and is found in Josephus.
2. Josephus either hides this character or the story is the subject of Redaction by others who edited Josephus' work. The Character "Salome" is identified as "Salome Alexandra" in Josephus, which hides Identity and changes our view of History.
3. This all points to the NT as a Construction but also as a Telescoping of TWO Stories from different Time Frames (same background) into one story seen as continuous.
***
Luke 2: 36 - 38 {RSV):
[36] And there was a prophetess, Anna, the daughter of Phan'u-el, of the tribe of Asher; she was of a great age, having lived with her husband seven years from her virginity,
[37] and as a widow till she was eighty-four. She did not depart from the temple, worshiping with fasting and prayer night and day.
[38] And coming up at that very hour she gave thanks to God, and spoke of him to all who were looking for the redemption of Jerusalem.
You face several choices here:
A. This records a "Really Real Event".
B. This is all so much smoke and mirrors, written "Out of whole cloth" so to speak.
C. This is a Symbolic Story, the Assignment of Meaning perhaps still to be properly discovered.
D. Etc.
Let's go with "C" and see if we might find a Trail.
I have formed this argument from different Data Points through the years but today I wish, for economy of space, to start with the Assumption that the Lukan Passage is about a Salome, wife of Jannaeus.
The phrase "There was..." presents us with a looking back 84 years to a time with a variety of closely spaced events. From what point in time do we begin look back 84 years? If this is from a "Really Real Jesus Character" (Check your Athesism at the door...) we are no better off as there are almost as many dates for "Jesus lived during these years" as there are people researching "Jesus". Is there anything else in the NT that might help us understand "84 Years?
Let us start from the Ascension of Salome and work forward. The death of husband Alexander Jannaeus is given as 76 BCE and, in Josephus, Jannaeus gives Salome instructions that will lead to her Rulership.
(- 76) + 84 = 8 (CE).
Our working assumption leads to an odd date: 8 CE. Nothing stands out about this date. Judea is under the Procuratorship of someone named "Coponius", who will soon return to Rome. There is no War roiling the waters at this moment. If this means anything, the meaning will be carried by other Data that will make this examination worthwhile.
I believe there is Data that is helpful here.
Let us look at Mark for a moment.
Mark 5: 25, 39, 42 (RSV):
[25] And there was a woman who had had a flow of blood for twelve years...
Embedded in this is another Story, the end of which carries another Time Marker, the same as in the first Story:
[39] And when he had entered, he said to them, "Why do you make a tumult and weep? The child is not dead but sleeping."
***
[42] And immediately the girl got up and walked (she was twelve years of age), and they were immediately overcome with amazement.
We are given these Time Markers of 12 years. If these are Symbolic Stories and not Reflective of "Really Real Jesus Stories", to what Event does the "12 Years" Marker refer? As before, there is no Anchor Position from which we may begin. What if, however, we tie this to the 8 CE Marker? What happened 12 years prior to this?
Josephus, Antiquities..., 17, 9, 3:
Now, upon the approach of that feast of unleavened bread, which the law of their fathers had appointed for the Jews at this time, which feast is called the Passover and is a memorial of their deliverance out of Egypt, when they offer sacrifices with great alacrity; and when they are required to slay more sacrifices in number than at any other festival; and when an innumerable multitude came thither out of the country, nay, from beyond its limits also, in order to worship God, the seditious lamented Judas and Matthias, those teachers of the laws, and kept together in the temple, and had plenty of food, because these seditious persons were not ashamed to beg it. And as Archelaus was afraid lest some terrible thing should spring up by means of these men's madness, he sent a regiment of armed men, and with them a captain of a thousand, to suppress the violent efforts of the seditious before the whole multitude should be infected with the like madness; and gave them this charge, that if they found any much more openly seditious than others, and more busy in tumultuous practices, they should bring them to him. But those that were seditious on account of those teachers of the law, irritated the people by the noise and clamors they used to encourage the people in their designs; so they made an assault upon the soldiers, and came up to them, and stoned the greatest part of them, although some of them ran away wounded, and their captain among them; and when they had thus done, they returned to the sacrifices which were already in their hands. Now Archelaus thought there was no way to preserve the entire government but by cutting off those who made this attempt upon it; so he sent out the whole army upon them, and sent the horsemen to prevent those that had their tents without the temple from assisting those that were within the temple, and to kill such as ran away from the footmen when they thought themselves out of danger; which horsemen slew three thousand men, while the rest went to the neighboring mountains. Then did Archelaus order proclamation to be made to them all, that they should retire to their own homes; so they went away, and left the festival, out of fear of somewhat worse which would follow, although they had been so bold by reason of their want of instruction..."
These stories tell of the death of Herod and the surrounding stories of the PRIESTHOOD, not to be confused the Corrupt High Priesthood Apparatus. The Priestly Groups (1 Chronicles 24) have been given Settlements in Galilee and their Mishmarot Duties demand that they travel from Galilee to Jerusalem for Temple Service, which may cross over Calendrical Boundaries.
It stands as a Proof Item that the Groups Bilgah and Immer serve at the Passover of 4 BCE through the Weekly Sabbath, when 3000+ were murdered during Passover at the Temple at the death of Herod.
Assignment of Meaning to Symbolic Stories is no Certain Thing. There are other Time Markers at work but "The Woman with the 12 Year Issue of Blood" may be referenced here. "Jairus' Daughter" demands an accounting as well.
More Later...
CW
Working to identify "Hannah the Prophetess" with "Salome, Jannaeus' Wife"
-
Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
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Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: Working to identify "Hannah the Prophetess" with "Salome, Jannaeus' Wife"
John 2: 19 - 21 (RSV):
[19] Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
[20] The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
[21] But he spoke of the temple of his body.
One of the Central Claims that must be explained gives a Time Marker, "46 years".
There is some variance around any "Absolute Dating" Scheme which, hopefully, will be explained better in a later Post.
Nonetheless, 8/9 CE + (- 46) years = 38 CE.
What happened in 38/ 37 BCE?
From the ever convenient but ever politicized Wiki-P:
"Romans conquer Jerusalem from the Parthians. Herod the Great becomes king of Judea and Ananelus is installed as High Priest; both positions are seized from Antigonus II Mattathias after a five-month siege. Thousands of Jews are slaughtered by Roman troops supporting Herod."
Our old Friend and Poster maryhelena has written much on this Site concerning Antigonus 2. This IS an important Marker as it points to the real Problem:
Wiki-P, Antigonus 2 Mattathius:
"Following the conquest of Jerusalem by the Parthians, Herod fled quickly from Masada to Rome, where he was nominated in 40 BCE as the new king of Judea (Latin: Rex socius et amicus populi Romani, allied king and friend of the Roman people) by the Senate on the recommendation of the triumvir Mark Antony. On Herod's return to Judaea from Rome in 39 BCE he opened a campaign against Antigonus and laid siege to Jerusalem. In the spring of 38 BCE, Herod wrested control of the province of Galilee and eventually all of Judea other than Jerusalem. Due to the approach of winter, Herod postponed his siege of Jerusalem, where Antigonus and the remnants of his army took refuge, until spring. Herod and a supporting Roman army were kept out of Jerusalem for 3–5 months but the Romans did eventually capture the city. The supporters of Antigonus fought until the Romans reached the inner courtyard of the Temple.[4] Antigonus was taken to Antioch and executed, ending Hasmonean rule.
"Josephus states that Mark Antony beheaded Antigonus (Antiquities, XV 1:2 (8–9). Roman historian Cassius Dio says that he was crucified and records in his Roman History: "These people [the Jews] Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern; but Antigonus he bound to a cross and scourged, a punishment no other king had suffered at the hands of the Romans, and so slew him. " In his Life of Antony, Plutarch claims that Antony had Antigonus beheaded, "the first example of that punishment being inflicted on a king."
The importance of the End of Hasmonean Rule cannot be overestimated.
The "Prophecy" here is literal and links the Priesthood with the Hasmoneans and Jannaeus. The Math will show that the Mishmarot Service Groups Bilgah and Immer are on Duty for the Passover of 4 BCE with Immer presiding over the weekly Sabbath to Re-Dedicate a New Temple not built by human hands, after the Herodians and the Romans have been overthrown.
This will be shown below with an explanation of "The Woman Bent Over for 18 Years".
CW
PS: One last note of the John Passage: This Passage appears to have been very HOT for the early Composers of John. " But he spoke of the temple of his body" is an obvious - and weak - attempt to cover the tracks of the original composition. It has led to some wild speculations, among them that
"Jesus" must have been "actually" 46 years old and so on.
For those who are Metaphysically Inclined, it allows one to evade looking at Historical Markers and avoid anything other than the Orthodox.
[19] Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up."
[20] The Jews then said, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will you raise it up in three days?"
[21] But he spoke of the temple of his body.
One of the Central Claims that must be explained gives a Time Marker, "46 years".
There is some variance around any "Absolute Dating" Scheme which, hopefully, will be explained better in a later Post.
Nonetheless, 8/9 CE + (- 46) years = 38 CE.
What happened in 38/ 37 BCE?
From the ever convenient but ever politicized Wiki-P:
"Romans conquer Jerusalem from the Parthians. Herod the Great becomes king of Judea and Ananelus is installed as High Priest; both positions are seized from Antigonus II Mattathias after a five-month siege. Thousands of Jews are slaughtered by Roman troops supporting Herod."
Our old Friend and Poster maryhelena has written much on this Site concerning Antigonus 2. This IS an important Marker as it points to the real Problem:
Wiki-P, Antigonus 2 Mattathius:
"Following the conquest of Jerusalem by the Parthians, Herod fled quickly from Masada to Rome, where he was nominated in 40 BCE as the new king of Judea (Latin: Rex socius et amicus populi Romani, allied king and friend of the Roman people) by the Senate on the recommendation of the triumvir Mark Antony. On Herod's return to Judaea from Rome in 39 BCE he opened a campaign against Antigonus and laid siege to Jerusalem. In the spring of 38 BCE, Herod wrested control of the province of Galilee and eventually all of Judea other than Jerusalem. Due to the approach of winter, Herod postponed his siege of Jerusalem, where Antigonus and the remnants of his army took refuge, until spring. Herod and a supporting Roman army were kept out of Jerusalem for 3–5 months but the Romans did eventually capture the city. The supporters of Antigonus fought until the Romans reached the inner courtyard of the Temple.[4] Antigonus was taken to Antioch and executed, ending Hasmonean rule.
"Josephus states that Mark Antony beheaded Antigonus (Antiquities, XV 1:2 (8–9). Roman historian Cassius Dio says that he was crucified and records in his Roman History: "These people [the Jews] Antony entrusted to a certain Herod to govern; but Antigonus he bound to a cross and scourged, a punishment no other king had suffered at the hands of the Romans, and so slew him. " In his Life of Antony, Plutarch claims that Antony had Antigonus beheaded, "the first example of that punishment being inflicted on a king."
The importance of the End of Hasmonean Rule cannot be overestimated.
The "Prophecy" here is literal and links the Priesthood with the Hasmoneans and Jannaeus. The Math will show that the Mishmarot Service Groups Bilgah and Immer are on Duty for the Passover of 4 BCE with Immer presiding over the weekly Sabbath to Re-Dedicate a New Temple not built by human hands, after the Herodians and the Romans have been overthrown.
This will be shown below with an explanation of "The Woman Bent Over for 18 Years".
CW
PS: One last note of the John Passage: This Passage appears to have been very HOT for the early Composers of John. " But he spoke of the temple of his body" is an obvious - and weak - attempt to cover the tracks of the original composition. It has led to some wild speculations, among them that
"Jesus" must have been "actually" 46 years old and so on.
For those who are Metaphysically Inclined, it allows one to evade looking at Historical Markers and avoid anything other than the Orthodox.
-
Charles Wilson
- Posts: 2107
- Joined: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:13 am
Re: Working to identify "Hannah the Prophetess" with "Salome, Jannaeus' Wife"
"The Woman Bent Over for Eighteen Years"
This one took some work but has resulted in a very satisfying conclusion: The thesis that there was an Original Document centered on the Priesthood and the Hasmoneans is sound. This Document was dismembered and rewritten into the story of a savior-god loyal to Rome. Joe Atwill is correct in his Analysis of this aspect of what we have today as the NT.
Luke 13: 10 - 17 (RSV):
[10] Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
[11] And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself.
[12] And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
[13] And he laid his hands upon her, and immediately she was made straight, and she praised God.
[14] But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the sabbath, said to the people, "There are six days on which work ought to be done; come on those days and be healed, and not on the sabbath day."
[15] Then the Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his ass from the manger, and lead it away to water it?
[16] And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"
[17] As he said this, all his adversaries were put to shame; and all the people rejoiced at all the glorious things that were done by him.
This immediately recalls "The Man with the Withered Hand" in Mark:
Mark 3: 1 - 6 (RSV):
[1] Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand.
[2] And they watched him, to see whether he would heal him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him.
[3] And he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come here."
[4] And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
[5] And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
[6] The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero'di-ans against him, how to destroy him.
I invite you to see these two Stories as telling the same Moral: There is a proper way to worship God and the corrupt Apparatus surrounding the Temple and the ruling "over" the Priesthood has prevented the people from this Proper Worship. The Man with the Withered Hand is a Scribe who has been prevented from writing of the Atrocity at the death of Herod and the ascension of Archelaus where 3000+ people were slaughtered at the Temple.
The Woman Bent Over for 18 Years Story has been written with a Time Marker of 18 years. From our important Date of Passover, 9 CE, It has been written as the Priests of Immer are beginning their March to Jerusalem for their Mishmarot Service. From the New Year to Passover is 2 weeks. Bilgah is on Duty for the first part of this with Immer taking over at the Weekly Sabbath. There is a Time Marker that gives a "Post New Year Reading".
1. Antiquities..., 15, 11, 1:
"AND now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign...undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God, and make it larger in compass...to bring it to perfection; and that this would be sufficient for an everlasting memorial of him..."
We are given 2 clues of different importance. One, that Herod was in his 18th year of rule when he began to work on building this temple. The second point leads to the understanding of the story. Herod, who built a temple to Apollo in another place, sees the building of this temple as a memorial to him. This is pride. It is fatal to Herod's attempt to placate the Hasmonaeans.
The first clue is the "...eighteenth year of his reign.". This corresponds to the year(s) 20 – 19 BCE.
2. Antiquities..., 15, 11, 6:
"But the temple itself was built by the priests in a year and six months". We are somewhat closer to ~ 10 BCE but that is not close enough.
3. Antiquities..., 15, 11, 5:
"The temple itself was within this; and before that temple was the altar, upon which we offer our sacrifices and burnt-offerings to God. Into none of these three did king Herod enter, for he was forbidden, because he was not a priest. However, he took care of the cloisters and the outer enclosures, and these he built in eight years."
This puts us on the correct path. Herod built the temple in a year and a half from around 20 – 19 BCE. This places us around ~ 18 or 17 BCE. He then takes another 8 years to finish the area around the temple Holy Site itself and this brings us to the date we need,~ 10 BCE (18 years from the 9 CE Passover).
4. Antiquities..., 15, 11, 6:
"They feasted and celebrated this rebuilding of the temple... for at the same time with this celebration for the work about the temple fell also the day of the king's inauguration, which he kept of an old custom as a festival, and it now coincided with the other, which coincidence of them both made the festival most illustrious...."
So you worship God and Herod on the same day! Now we know why the Woman was bent over for 18 years. The Priest is releasing all of Judea from the restrictions and abominations of Herod and the Romans.
CW
This one took some work but has resulted in a very satisfying conclusion: The thesis that there was an Original Document centered on the Priesthood and the Hasmoneans is sound. This Document was dismembered and rewritten into the story of a savior-god loyal to Rome. Joe Atwill is correct in his Analysis of this aspect of what we have today as the NT.
Luke 13: 10 - 17 (RSV):
[10] Now he was teaching in one of the synagogues on the sabbath.
[11] And there was a woman who had had a spirit of infirmity for eighteen years; she was bent over and could not fully straighten herself.
[12] And when Jesus saw her, he called her and said to her, "Woman, you are freed from your infirmity."
[13] And he laid his hands upon her, and immediately she was made straight, and she praised God.
[14] But the ruler of the synagogue, indignant because Jesus had healed on the sabbath, said to the people, "There are six days on which work ought to be done; come on those days and be healed, and not on the sabbath day."
[15] Then the Lord answered him, "You hypocrites! Does not each of you on the sabbath untie his ox or his ass from the manger, and lead it away to water it?
[16] And ought not this woman, a daughter of Abraham whom Satan bound for eighteen years, be loosed from this bond on the sabbath day?"
[17] As he said this, all his adversaries were put to shame; and all the people rejoiced at all the glorious things that were done by him.
This immediately recalls "The Man with the Withered Hand" in Mark:
Mark 3: 1 - 6 (RSV):
[1] Again he entered the synagogue, and a man was there who had a withered hand.
[2] And they watched him, to see whether he would heal him on the sabbath, so that they might accuse him.
[3] And he said to the man who had the withered hand, "Come here."
[4] And he said to them, "Is it lawful on the sabbath to do good or to do harm, to save life or to kill?" But they were silent.
[5] And he looked around at them with anger, grieved at their hardness of heart, and said to the man, "Stretch out your hand." He stretched it out, and his hand was restored.
[6] The Pharisees went out, and immediately held counsel with the Hero'di-ans against him, how to destroy him.
I invite you to see these two Stories as telling the same Moral: There is a proper way to worship God and the corrupt Apparatus surrounding the Temple and the ruling "over" the Priesthood has prevented the people from this Proper Worship. The Man with the Withered Hand is a Scribe who has been prevented from writing of the Atrocity at the death of Herod and the ascension of Archelaus where 3000+ people were slaughtered at the Temple.
The Woman Bent Over for 18 Years Story has been written with a Time Marker of 18 years. From our important Date of Passover, 9 CE, It has been written as the Priests of Immer are beginning their March to Jerusalem for their Mishmarot Service. From the New Year to Passover is 2 weeks. Bilgah is on Duty for the first part of this with Immer taking over at the Weekly Sabbath. There is a Time Marker that gives a "Post New Year Reading".
1. Antiquities..., 15, 11, 1:
"AND now Herod, in the eighteenth year of his reign...undertook a very great work, that is, to build of himself the temple of God, and make it larger in compass...to bring it to perfection; and that this would be sufficient for an everlasting memorial of him..."
We are given 2 clues of different importance. One, that Herod was in his 18th year of rule when he began to work on building this temple. The second point leads to the understanding of the story. Herod, who built a temple to Apollo in another place, sees the building of this temple as a memorial to him. This is pride. It is fatal to Herod's attempt to placate the Hasmonaeans.
The first clue is the "...eighteenth year of his reign.". This corresponds to the year(s) 20 – 19 BCE.
2. Antiquities..., 15, 11, 6:
"But the temple itself was built by the priests in a year and six months". We are somewhat closer to ~ 10 BCE but that is not close enough.
3. Antiquities..., 15, 11, 5:
"The temple itself was within this; and before that temple was the altar, upon which we offer our sacrifices and burnt-offerings to God. Into none of these three did king Herod enter, for he was forbidden, because he was not a priest. However, he took care of the cloisters and the outer enclosures, and these he built in eight years."
This puts us on the correct path. Herod built the temple in a year and a half from around 20 – 19 BCE. This places us around ~ 18 or 17 BCE. He then takes another 8 years to finish the area around the temple Holy Site itself and this brings us to the date we need,~ 10 BCE (18 years from the 9 CE Passover).
4. Antiquities..., 15, 11, 6:
"They feasted and celebrated this rebuilding of the temple... for at the same time with this celebration for the work about the temple fell also the day of the king's inauguration, which he kept of an old custom as a festival, and it now coincided with the other, which coincidence of them both made the festival most illustrious...."
So you worship God and Herod on the same day! Now we know why the Woman was bent over for 18 years. The Priest is releasing all of Judea from the restrictions and abominations of Herod and the Romans.
CW