Julian denies the authenticity of both Testimonium Flavianum and Taciteum

[Giuseppe]

The passage attributed to Julian

The reason for this is that they never even hoped that you would one day attain to such power as you have; for they were content if they could delude maidservants and slaves, and through them the women, and men like Cornelius and Sergius. But if you can show me that one of these men is mentioned by the well-known writers of that time,----these events happened in the reign of Tiberius or Claudius,----then you may consider that I speak falsely about all matters.

with its references to Cornelius and Sergius, from the book of Acts, almost sound as if Julian is talking about the early preaching of Christianity rather than the life of Christ. Is Julian saying that no secular historian even noticed the preaching of the Apostles and the early spread of Christianity ?

Andrew Criddle

Right. I think Julian is saying Jesus and Paul preached to people of no consequence who were easy to delude - maidservants and slaves (some of them women) and men like Cornelius and Sergius. They did not attempt to or expect to convert people of consequence and aren’t mentioned by the well-known writers of the time. The time was the reigns of Tiberius (Jesus) and Claudius (Paul).

I have seen that your Julian's quote is derived from book 1 (presumably, the book 1 of Cyril's work). The book 6 remains a mystery. I should find the correct quote in it.

[GakuseiDon]

Why would Julian have thought that Josephus was a non-Christian? You've read the TF.

Josephus was a Pharisee, ergo (for who has read the gospels, and Julian did) a not-Christian.

What do you think Julian would have made of Josephus's apparent comment in the TF: "He was the Christ"?

[Paul the Uncertain]

What do you think Julian would have made of Josephus's apparent comment in the TF: "He was the Christ"?

If I may offer my own answer while waiting for Giuseppe's:

I think Julian would know that Josephus was Jewish and not a Christian writer. Like any reader, when he encountered a statement like "He was "Christ'" Julian might at first think it was anomalous: wow, here's this hardcore Jewish guy making a Christian confession.

Perhaps, then, only on second thought would he realize that it is unlikely that Josephus would make such a confession, not only because he was Jewish, but also because he was on record that the reigio-historical role which Christians refer to as that of "Christ" was fulfilled by Vespasian and Titus (to whom he dedicated the work in which the TF is received).

At that point, perhaps Julian, like any lapsed Christian, might ask of himself, "Under what circumstances might even I assert of Jesus of Galilee that he was the Christ?" Surely not as a confession of faith, but what?

One obvious situation would be if the speaker set out to explain why Christians call themselves that. It would be almost impossible to do so without mentioning that the name derives from a founder-figure's title or nickname.

Julian might then ask himself, "Is there anything in the received text that supports that interpretation?" Well, it may be of some relevance that the received TF concludes with the remark, in black letters, that the name Christians refers to the man described in the passage. Etymological intent may also explain why the received text mentions both Jewish and Greek followers, even though that fact claim isn't stressed in the gospels (it is there, nevertheless). However, the diverse ethnicity of his admirers does explain why a Jewish man is often called by his Greek-language cognomen.

Interpolation is not anomalous, but we don't know that the TF had been widely doctored as early as Julian, particularly if Eusebius was the one who launched the difficulty. So, too, mentioning the root form of a term when explaining its history is not anomalous, e.g. identifying Christ as a founder's handle when telling how Christian comes to be the name of a movement.

[Giuseppe]

Why would Julian have thought that Josephus was a non-Christian? You've read the TF.

Josephus was a Pharisee, ergo (for who has read the gospels, and Julian did) a not-Christian.

What do you think Julian would have made of Josephus's apparent comment in the TF: "He was the Christ"?

if I am correct, Josephus read the TF in Eusebius but he denied his presence in Josephus.

Dave Allen thinks that his denial was a lie. I don't.

[Giuseppe]

The passage attributed to Julian

The reason for this is that they never even hoped that you would one day attain to such power as you have; for they were content if they could delude maidservants and slaves, and through them the women, and men like Cornelius and Sergius. But if you can show me that one of these men is mentioned by the well-known writers of that time,----these events happened in the reign of Tiberius or Claudius,----then you may consider that I speak falsely about all matters.

with its references to Cornelius and Sergius, from the book of Acts, almost sound as if Julian is talking about the early preaching of Christianity rather than the life of Christ. Is Julian saying that no secular historian even noticed the preaching of the Apostles and the early spread of Christianity ?

Andrew Criddle

If Julian is questioning the historicity of the book of Acts then he is questioningly its Christian origin story. An origin story centered around a Jesus figure. Can't have one without the other....

I agree. How could the "writers of the time" ignore the Christians, according to Julian, without ignoring the Christ?

In addition, the Testimonium Flavianum ends talking about the tribe of the Christians being not dead.

[Paul the Uncertain]

if I am correct, Josephus read the TF in Eusebius but he denied his presence in Josephus.

Dave Allen thinks that his denial was a lie. I don't.

You're still short of showing there was a denial. Assuming Ken has located the focus paragraph, Julian said nothing about writers or writings after the events of Acts supposedly occurred (e.g. the interactions of first generation apostles with people like Cornelius and Sergius Paulus apparently mentioned by Julian). That is, nothing after the time of Claudius, which is when writers might be rehearsing the church's position about its early days rather than remarking about mighty deeds known from the lived experience of the writer.

So far as we the living know, then, Julian's fact claim is true as Julian stated it. No natural language utterance is immune from "amplification," but the speaker can hardly be called a liar because of what people centuries later might read into his remarks.

[Giuseppe]

I have found this, dated 2015:

New edition of Cyril of Alexandria’s “Against Julian” is soon to appear – offline, and very pricey

But I don't find the link to buy the book.

It informs us that the work will be published in November 2015, and priced at $168.

[Ken Olson]

The English translation of Julian I posted earlier is by (Emily) Wilmer Cave Wright in the third volume of the Loeb Classics edition of the works of Julian, which is in the public domain and downloadable here (volume L157):

http://ancientworldonline.blogspot.com/ ... loebs.html

In her introduction, Wilmer Cave Wright says she based her translation on Neumann's edition of Julian, which is in turn extracted from Spanheim's 1696 edition of Cyril (p. 317).

Julian - Against the Christians.jpg (1.64 MiB) Viewed 352 times

Best,

Ken

The German edition of 2015, appears to contain books 1-5. I do not know if books 6-10 have been published yet.

I think book I refers to the book of Julian's against the Christians and this is the reference from book 6 of Cyril's Against Julian, but If anyone can locate an edition of book 6 to confirm or disconfirm that, please do.

[Giuseppe]

I think book I refers to the book of Julian's against the Christians and this is the reference from book 6 of Cyril's Against Julian, but If anyone can locate an edition of book 6 to confirm or disconfirm that, please do.

I hope that the edition of book 6 can be found, since I think that Weyll-Raynall was a serious mythicist, and he appears to have quoted literally Cyrill.

[StephenGoranson]

I'm not sure this is relevant, but, in case:

"Gegen Julian".
Teil 2, Buch 6-10 und Fragmente /
Cyril, Saint Patriarch of Alexandria; Wolfram Kinzig; Thomas Brüggemann; Gerlinde Huber-Rebenich; Stefan Rebenich; Christoph Riedweg; Adolf Martin Ritter; Markus Vinzent; Hubert Kaufhold

2017
Greek, Ancient [to 1453] Internet Resource Internet Resource Computer File Computer File 1 online resource (2 volumes (ccxxxiii, 947 pages))
ISBN: 9783110391152 3110391155 9783110362589 3110362589
~~~
"Gegen Julian"
herausgegeben von Christoph Riedweg ; in Zusammenarbeit mit Wolfram Kinzig [and 4 others] ; und unter wissenschaftlicher Mitarbeit von Thomas Brüggemann [and 9 others] ; mit einer allgemeinen Einleitung von Wolfram Kinzig und Christoph Riedweg.
Boston : De Gruyter, 2016-2017. Book Print
DIVINITY SCHOOL LIBRARY — STACKS
BR65.C953 C6633 2016
Holdings: t.1-t.2
BR65.C953 C6633 2016 t.1 c.1 map marker
Available
BR65.C953 C6633 2016 t.2 c.1 map marker
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