From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Discussion about the New Testament, apocrypha, gnostics, church fathers, Christian origins, historical Jesus or otherwise, etc.
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2834
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by Leucius Charinus »


And whereas the entire Greek tradition attests to an exclusive use of ΙΣ ΧΣ (save for Bezae and some scraps), Philip states that ΙΣ doesn’t exist in any language; it is a ‘hidden name’, and he is called ΙΗΣ – and Philip seems to be wholly unaware of even a single Greek MS.

p.7

Philip seems to be aware of the Greek terms in the Arian controversy. He seems to be aware of the Greek LXX and Genesis 2:7 (imparting of the Holy Spirit in Adam). He also seems to be aware of the Greek NT because he weaves together in his own way all sorts of issues found in the NT. Including the name of Philip.

I have provided a number of scholars who argue that Philip is Post Nicene. So we may deduce that the version of the NT he read was likely the one published and circulated c.325 CE by Constantine and Eusebius. Thus in reading the Greek NT he can see for himself that the Greek tradition attests to an exclusive use of ΙΣ ΧΣ.

Philip states that "ΙΣ doesn’t exist in any language; it is a ‘hidden name’ precisely because these codes are unique to the Greek NT which he has before him. No other book in the Greek sections of all the libraries of the empire have a main character who's name has been purposefully hidden and encrypted as ΙΣ.
since the day that the ⲭⲥ̅ came
5. they create the (lawful) order
they (lawfully) order / govern the cities
they carry the dead outward.
A new process of "Chrestianisation" had commenced in the major cities of the empire. Philip is complaining about the detrimental effects to his community ever since the day that the ⲭⲥ̅ turned up in a codex probably delivered in a cart from the rightful Pontifex Maximus to the city of Alexandria. The city was as usual under Roman martial rule. But on this occasion the Roman emperor was trying to impress upon the Greeks and the philosophers in the city that they were now obliged to respect and revere a brand new "Holy Writ" about ΙΣ ΧΣ for Christ's sake.

And so Philip, some sort of elite and highly literate person, probably a philosopher took up his stylus and began writing "The Gospel of Philip". This was seditious. But what alternative did Philip have? None whatsoever.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

True Christian origins, and its evolution from the primary source: Thomas

Post by mlinssen »

There are uncountable layers of dramatic irony to the (hi)story of Christian origins, the evolution from Thomas to Chrestianity but most certainly the forced change of Chrestians into Christians.
Like Markus Vinzent in his latest 'Resetting the Originas of Christianity', allow me to traverse backwards through time

Turning Chrestianity into Christianity was initated for the greater good of Jews in general, and society on a whole: decades, and over a century of anti-Judaism had caused great civil unrest and many tens of thousands of lives: it was a war that raged within society and couldn't be contained, controlled or fixed.
1a. What was the situation? Continued, relentless rejection of, resistance against, and attacks on Jews throughout the Roman empire.
1b. Cause? A vehemently fierce anti-Judaism.
1c. Attempts to mitigate? Judaic habits were restricted, prohibited, and even Jews themselves had been banned from cities and entire provinces - all to no avail.
Why were these so unfair measures taken, directed against the victims instead of the perpetrators? Because the latter were invisible, unrecognisable, wheres the former stood out like a fly on the wall: this was a typical guerilla warfare, and it took place right in the middle of society.
So the story got rewritten, owned, and appropriated: this took many centuries and also involved changing the denomination of Chrestians into Christians. Every trace of its true origins that could be eliminated had to be eradicated, erased from history - and it took a millennium and The Inquisition to finally settle the matter

Where did that anti-Judaism come from? It came from Chrestianity, a movement that becomes apparent when we observe the centuries of Patristic writings aimed at their objectification of that, "Marcion": like Trypho in Justin Martyr, "Marcion" merely was a sock puppet created by the Patristics in order to handle the entire movement that lay behind it.
1a. What was the situation? The Chrestian movement had a Chrestian story similar to the NT, yet devoid of a birth narrative, baptism of Jesus, and most importantly resurrection. While devoid of any and all Judaic roots, it was largely directed against Judaism, and Judeans: ⲓⲟⲩⲇⲁⲓⲟⲥ.
b. Cause? The story came from John but later got expanded with the source to John, namely Thomas - and both John's text and the later "evangellion" existed next to each other
1c. The story in itself? IS is a spiritual being who focuses on the inside for salvation, the psyche: we all are responsible for finding our own solution. The text reacts and rages against Judaism and Judeans who engage in mostly outside manifestations of behaviour while slavishly following their leaders, something which was fiercely rejected by the movement: it was anarchistic in nature, very loosely organised, and most certainly nothing like an organised religion. Baptism was its core ritual of initiation, indicating the spiritual rebirth by and in the holy Spirit

Where did that story come from? It had a single source text from which it evolved, namely Thomas. Thomas is a deeply psychological text about salvation from the Ego and Self, putting an end to suffering, and it starts with attacking our mental illusions and projections: the World and our 'house'. It is full of slave (servant) and slaveowner (lord/master) and the goal of that exactly is to point out our slavery, to emphasise it, so we can become aware of it. Slavery to religious leaders, to religion, Judaism especially, but also slavery to our World view, our mental models that which we inhabitate. We all created this ourselves, shortly after birth, when we "came into being" and split, separated, into duality. We simply grew up, I-dentified, and we departed from the father. It is us who created the children of the father, the two: we made the two, Ego and Self, Slaveowner and Slave - and we are neither. We are the children of the father, and that most certainly is nothing to be envied: it is a grave problem that needs to be solved, it is a sickness to be cured

The larger and more elaborate exposition of the Thomas-Christianity evolution can be found in

https://www.academia.edu/76105160/The_i ... ristianity

For the deeper story of Thomas, there is

https://www.academia.edu/46974146/Compl ... Commentary

This all may seem like a complicated, perhaps even convoluted story - but it isn't, and all it requires are just two small steps: John ff needs to perceive only the superficial story of Thomas (and there are very few besides him who ever has done anything else), and the Roman rulers need to be desperate enough to undertake rewriting the story.
But the steps are too large! Yes and no, John was version 1.0 of the Chrestian story and *Ev was v2.0, and the combination of both greatly successful. Likewise Mark served as a v1.0 of Christianity, and LukeMatthew as a v2.0 completed it

Judaic origins to Christianity? Completely fake and false, and forced onto Chrestianity in order to undo the anti-Judaism. Mark and Paul followed the exact same strategy, one with the living IS and the other with its dead "sequel" XS:
1. Heal the wounds between Judaism and Chrestianity by ending the divide via bringing the opponents together;
2. Permanently align Chrestianity and Judaism by forging an unbreakable bond between the two via making one dependent on the other and vice versa.
IS reluctantly and very subtly gets turned into a "Jew" by Mark, the anti-Judaism gets redirected to the Pharisees, and IS conjured into the Judaic Messiah via all kinds of "prophecies". Naturally, none of that fits fine, let alone that it applies - but Mark does a great job really, if you understand where he comes from.
Paul does the same and Romans is the best demonstration: he addresses a Judaic audience and tries to sell the gentile religion to them, convincing them that its anti-Judaic habits are completely logical, and that the fact of it being gentile and not Judaic actually is the fulfillment of YHWH's promise to Judaism. And where Mark dresses up IS as a Jew, Paul dresses up himself as one

Anyone in search of the true beauty that is present in the NT at times, in the cryptic sayings of "Jesus": read Thomas, my Translation or that of Koepke, and understand that he intended to set us all onto the path of enlightenment, that which he displays in logion 2.
Do very closely watch the work of Milan Vukomanovic in that space. His https://www.academia.edu/41989582/Ekstr ... evandjelja especially is a must read, and if you need an English translation please don't hesitate to drop me a note
Jair
Posts: 75
Joined: Sat Feb 19, 2022 4:38 pm

Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by Jair »

Very fascinating. I have a few questions. IC, IHC, XC, XPC… I don’t know greek so these are all a bit confusing. Is there a transliteration of how these would be pronounced? Or are the pronunciations of these short words unknown?

Also, regarding your most recent post in the thread; I very well could be completely missing something with all of this but where exactly do we get the clues that point to Chrestianity being the catalyst for the war with the Jews?
lclapshaw
Posts: 784
Joined: Sun May 16, 2021 10:01 am

Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by lclapshaw »

Jair wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:46 pm Very fascinating. I have a few questions. IC, IHC, XC, XPC… I don’t know greek so these are all a bit confusing. Is there a transliteration of how these would be pronounced? Or are the pronunciations of these short words unknown?

Also, regarding your most recent post in the thread; I very well could be completely missing something with all of this but where exactly do we get the clues that point to Chrestianity being the catalyst for the war with the Jews?
IC etc are not words but rather abbreviations of Greek nouns. As an example the name/noun Iulios (Julius in Greek) would be abbreviated IC as Iulios begins with Iota and ends with Sigma, in this case a lunate sigma (C). XC is Chi Sigma etc.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by mlinssen »

Jair wrote: Mon Feb 13, 2023 5:46 pm Very fascinating. I have a few questions. IC, IHC, XC, XPC… I don’t know greek so these are all a bit confusing. Is there a transliteration of how these would be pronounced? Or are the pronunciations of these short words unknown?

Also, regarding your most recent post in the thread; I very well could be completely missing something with all of this but where exactly do we get the clues that point to Chrestianity being the catalyst for the war with the Jews?
That's a great question Jair, and it would require deep knowledge of Coptic and Greek, around that time, to answer that - which I don't have. I suggested in the Discussion that inserting weak vowels would seem most likely, but those are I and e for Greek so of no help. If you run into any kind of research there I would be most obliged

It's not just "the war with the Jews". What I cited was my paper on the emergence of Christianity where I present my tentative theory, and the reason being that we find all kinds of minor and major uprisings involving Judaios, be those ethnic or religious Jews or both, and the punishment afterwards that always involved religious measures whereas very few of those uprisings had an explicit religious cause

None of this is documented by texts in any way, I am merely trying to locate / identify a reason for the hostile takeover of Chrestianity by Christianity, for which we neither have explicit evidence.
What we now do have plausible reason to believe is that there was Chrestianity before Christianity, and we have various texts that allude to that. Which would explain why we have the fake and false traces of Judaism as roots to Christianity, of which none is any convincing

My evidence to the false translations of (Thomas and) Philip are solidly testified, as is the textual evidence to Chrestians, but this theory isn't. Hence why these are separate papers, while they obviously overlap

If any of this were spelled out in bold red letters, I reckon that someone would have stumbled on that prior...
rgprice
Posts: 2091
Joined: Sun Sep 16, 2018 11:57 pm

Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by rgprice »

It is interesting.

Yet, the conclusions you seem to reach require trusting this text entirely and taking it as authoritative. It would seems that more prudence is due.

Almost everything written about "Christianity" on all sides from the very beginning is smoke a mirrors and polemical in nature. I don't see why this text would be any different.

Irenaeus said that the four Gospels were the work of apostles that were produced long before the works of Marcion and other "heretics". This is of course not true at all.

There is no reason to trust this writer any more than Irenaeus.

The translation is important, but it doesn't mean that the writer gives us all "the real facts".
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by mlinssen »

rgprice wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:15 am It is interesting.

Yet, the conclusions you seem to reach require trusting this text entirely and taking it as authoritative. It would seems that more prudence is due.

Almost everything written about "Christianity" on all sides from the very beginning is smoke a mirrors and polemical in nature. I don't see why this text would be any different.

Irenaeus said that the four Gospels were the work of apostles that were produced long before the works of Marcion and other "heretics". This is of course not true at all.

There is no reason to trust this writer any more than Irenaeus.

The translation is important, but it doesn't mean that the writer gives us all "the real facts".
A text is a text Geoff, and that goes for all. It doesn't matter what's behind it, it only matters what's in it - and this text clearly relates of Chrestians, Chrestians and Chrestians. Who in the end become Christians via the Chrism.
It is the combination with that and the Roman historians, the Patristics, and research on the earliest texts found that points to more mentions of Chrestians, and even Justin Martyr calls himself one.
The NHL contains 6-7 IS the Chrestos, dozens of Chrestos and not a single Christos - and Philip is the only text to contain Christianos. There is abundant evidence of a movement around a Chrestos, there are dozens of "Chrestos-ness" in the NHL, and with Philip rejecting the resurrection and the virgin birth, it is evident that this preceded Christianity

The Discussion content, raw, stands at over 80 pages at the moment and I am about to use quite a bit of that to add to the paper

It's not just this text Geoff, it is all other evidence added to it. And a very telling part of that evidence is that the falsifying Christian translators don't even mention the various words. Lundhaug dares to point out the variants in XS and XRS and so on, but wisely shuts his mouth on the Chrestianoi

No text ever is authoritative by the way - it is always the context that may be elevated to such. Philip tells a story, like all texts tell a story
User avatar
Leucius Charinus
Posts: 2834
Joined: Fri Oct 04, 2013 4:23 pm
Location: memoriae damnatio

Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by Leucius Charinus »

mlinssen wrote: Tue Feb 14, 2023 11:58 am And a very telling part of that evidence is that the falsifying Christian translators don't even mention the various words. Lundhaug dares to point out the variants in XS and XRS and so on, but wisely shuts his mouth on the Chrestianoi

No text ever is authoritative by the way - it is always the context that may be elevated to such. Philip tells a story, like all texts tell a story
Lundhaug despite these failings argues that the authorship of Philip has a post Nicene context. His arguments are not trivial. Most scholars hold a 3rd-century date of composition. But they could be winging it. If you'd like a summary of his arguments I can supply one. But I imagine you must have read through this at some stage.

Begotten, Not Made, to Arise in This Flesh:
The Post-Nicene Soteriology of the Gospel of Philip

HUGO LUNDHAUG1
https://www.academia.edu/5895809/Begott ... ilip_2013_

The conflict between the explicit use of "Chrestian" and "Christian" may not have evolved prior to the 4th century. It may have been brief and highly controversial. And it may have been buried by the eventual victors in such a struggle.
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave. The Marcionites said Chrestos

Post by mlinssen »

A.

2 Doch ist darauf hinzuweisen, daß Marcioniten noch im Anfang des 4. Jahrh. (Inschrift von Lebaba) den Namen χρηστός schrieben und gewiß nicht übersehen haben, wie passend dieser Name für die persönliche Manifestation des guten Gottes ist.

Harnack, das Evangelium vom fremden Gott, p. 123 footnote 2

B.

(8) Daß er nicht χριστός, sondern χρηστός, heißt, ist schwerlich ein bloßer Itazismus; denn naiv stand am Anfang des 4. Jahrhunderts kein Christ mehr dem Wort gegenüber; vielmehr ist anzunehmen, daß die Marcioniten den Erlöser mit Bewußtsein χρηστός, nannten, im Gegensatz zum "Gesalbten" des ATlichen Gottes und in Erinnerung an den "guten Gott", den er offenbart hat. Man beachte auch, daß von den vier Namen des Erlösers nur der Name χρηστός, ausgeschrieben ist.

Idem, page 343: "hardly a mere iotacism"

TL;DR: Marcionites had a χρηστός, not a χριστός - and it's on the inscription of the oldest church, that in Deir-Ali.
The oldest Church inscription is "Marcionite"
Of course, it's been a while since Harnack wrote his book: have any older church inscriptions be discovered?
User avatar
mlinssen
Posts: 3431
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2019 11:01 am
Location: The Netherlands
Contact:

Re: From Chrestian to Christian - Philip beyond the grave

Post by mlinssen »

The Discussion Content has been published, 142 pages - 2 short of the longest one ever, which was the very heated one on the emergence of Christianity

https://www.academia.edu/97781110/From_ ... on_content

Several pointers from that document to this site, which I refer to as my "scratchpad"
Post Reply