Price defines 'crazy" the Carrier's sperm bank theory

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Sinouhe
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Re: Price defines 'crazy" the Carrier's sperm bank theory

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Paul the Uncertain wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:31 pm Paul seems to think of the Resurrection, though, as a recent event based on he and his contemporaries having met the risen Christ in visions and some have received teaching commissions, Paul's interpretation of the Resurrection as the beginning of a general resurrection (Jesus being its "first fruits"), Paul expecting to avoid death himself now that the general resurrections has begun, and his apparent walking back his earlier preaching that his converts would also avoid death.

I do think that the revelations of the Hidden Christ/Messiah are recent since Paul says he had these revelations himself.
However, he says that this secret has been hidden since ancient times. This is confirmed by the Deutero-Pauline letters:

Romans 16
25 Now to him who is able to establish you in accordance with my gospel, the message I proclaim about Jesus Christ, in keeping with the revelation of the mystery hidden for long ages past,
26 but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings
by the command of the eternal God, so that all the Gentiles might come to the obedience that comes fromfaith—

Ephesians 3
3 that is, the mystery made known to me by revelation, as I have already written briefly.
4 In reading this, then, you will be able to understand my insight into the mystery of Christ,
5 which was not made known to people in other generations as it has now been revealed by the Spirit to God’s holy apostles and prophets.
6 This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus.
8 Although I am less than the least of all the Lord’s people, this grace was given me: to preach to the Gentiles the boundless riches of Christ,
9 and to make plain to everyone the administration of this mystery, which for ages past was kept hidden in God, who created all things.

Colossians 1
26 the mystery that has been kept hidden for ages and generations, but is now disclosed to the Lord’s people.
27 To them God has chosen to make known among the Gentiles the glorious riches of this mystery, which is Christ in you, the hope of glory.

On the other hand, he considers the return of the Messiah as an imminent event. This is something like what Isaiah presents in his book. The crushed servant is a past event. Then this servant is exalted. Then the day of judgment approaches.
And Isaiah sometimes links the day of judgment with the servant. Isaiah's influence on Paul is more deep than we can imagine.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:31 pm In your current thinking, does Paul view the Resurrection as a recent event, where does the "third day" after Jesus's death fit in,
I think the third day is a detail that he/they must have found in the scriptures as he says himself.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:31 pm and is Paul inferring the Resurrection (and its timing) from scripture, or just from the visionary meetings, or both?
Anyway, yours is in an interesting alternative viewpoint.
His letters and the Deuutero-pauline letters say both. I do not believe in magical visions. So I would say that he only got this from the scriptures and added the visions to the story to give himself credibility as an apostle, like his predecessors did.
Paul the Uncertain
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Re: Price defines 'crazy" the Carrier's sperm bank theory

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Thank you for the reply. I'm trying to work out the timeline that Paul would have preached:
Sinouhe wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:34 pm
I do think that the revelations of the Hidden Christ/Messiah are recent since Paul says he had these revelations himself.
However, he says that this secret has been hidden since ancient times. This is confirmed by the Deutero-Pauline letters: ...

On the other hand, he considers the return of the Messiah as an imminent event. This is something like what Isaiah presents in his book. The crushed servant is a past event. Then this servant is exalted. Then the day of judgment approaches.
And Isaiah sometimes links the day of judgment with the servant. Isaiah's influence on Paul is more deep than we can imagine.

I think the third day is a detail that he/they must have found in the scriptures as he says himself.
So maybe: The servant suffers and dies in the indefinite past.
Isaiah writes out about that in the remote but historical past, as a mix of accomplished fact and prophetic anticipation.
The servant's resurrection and exaltation, appearances to the living, and Paul's new understanding of Isaiah are recent developments.

The recency of the servant's resurrection inspires Paul to think that a general resurrection and the end of human mortality are in progress as he is writing about them. He preaches that he and some of his audience will never die.

In order for the death in the indefinte past and the recent resurrection to be reconciled with the phrase "on the third day" (perhaps as found in Hosea 6:2), Paul would need some figurative interpretation of day. Maybe the all-purpose "a day for the LORD is a thousand years," or maybe seeing the third "day" as the third step of something more concrete that occurred in three phases, each of indefinite duration (now soon to be followed by a final fourth step, the judgment).
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 4:31 pm and is Paul inferring the Resurrection (and its timing) from scripture, or just from the visionary meetings, or both?
Anyway, yours is in an interesting alternative viewpoint.
His letters and the Deuutero-pauline letters say both. I do not believe in magical visions. So I would say that he only got this from the scriptures and added the visions to the story to give himself credibility as an apostle, like his predecessors did.
Visions are common human experiences, and of course sleeping dreams are universal (not even species specific so far as we can tell). It is unnecessary to believe in any magical character to recognize that unconscious content does occasionally emerge into the field of consciousness. When it does, some people are observed to interpret their experience as magical, mystical, or religious.

(I can also report from personal experience, consistent with the recorded experience of others, that the emergence even of secular "bright ideas" can have the "look and feel" of visionary experience. Poincare on bus is searchable and returns a famous secular example with lasting real-world impact.)
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Sinouhe
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Re : Le prix définit "fou" la théorie de la banque de spermatozoïdes de Carrier

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Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:38 am Thank you for the reply. I'm trying to work out the timeline that Paul would have preached:


So maybe: The servant suffers and dies in the indefinite past.
Yes that's my point.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:38 am Isaiah writes out about that in the remote but historical past, as a mix of accomplished fact and prophetic anticipation.
Exact for the past tense in Isaiah 53 but i don’t know what Isaiah had in mind but yes, i think Paul understood these verses as historical past.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:38 am The servant's resurrection and exaltation, appearances to the living, and Paul's new understanding of Isaiah are recent developments.
The servant's resurrection and exaltation are found in Isaiah 52-53. So i guess Paul interpreted these 2 elements as past elements too.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:38 am The recency of the servant's resurrection inspires Paul to think that a general resurrection and the end of human mortality are in progress as he is writing about them.
The general resurrection is already found in Isaiah (chapter 26).
Eschatology in Paul's letters is based almost entirely on Isaiah.
Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:38 am In order for the death in the indefinte past and the recent resurrection to be reconciled with the phrase "on the third day" (perhaps as found in Hosea 6:2), Paul would need some figurative interpretation of day. Maybe the all-purpose "a day for the LORD is a thousand years," or maybe seeing the third "day" as the third step of something more concrete that occurred in three phases, each of indefinite duration (now soon to be followed by a final fourth step, the judgment).
In fact, Paul links the resurrection of Jesus with the general resurrection, that's correct. This is a development of Isaiah's idea of resurrection, without the prophet linking the idea of general resurrection with that of the servant.
On the other hand I do not think that it is the resurrection of Jesus as a recent event that prefigures the general resurrection of men. Rather, I think that it is the revelation of the resurrection as an ancient event, but recently revealed by the apostles + the faith in Jesus, that foreshadows the general resurrection. This is what I deduce from the letters of Paul and the deutero-pauline letters which speak of a distant secret revealed only now to the apostles.

Paul the Uncertain wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 1:38 am Visions are common human experiences, and of course sleeping dreams are universal (not even species specific so far as we can tell). It is unnecessary to believe in any magical character to recognize that unconscious content does occasionally emerge into the field of consciousness. When it does, some people are observed to interpret their experience as magical, mystical, or religious.

(I can also report from personal experience, consistent with the recorded experience of others, that the emergence even of secular "bright ideas" can have the "look and feel" of visionary experience. Poincare on bus is searchable and returns a famous secular example with lasting real-world impact.)
I tend to think that Paul is trying too hard to legitimize himself in his writing, and I don't really trust what he tells us. But yes, it is possible that he had dreams that caused him to interpret the book of Isaiah in such a way. It was a common thing in those days to fantasize about the servant. We have an impressive amount of messianic texts in the second temple period that do this as well.
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