The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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MrMacSon
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 10:29 pm
R.H. Charles' "Ascension of Isaiah" (1900) has a list showing the Ethiopic, L1, L2 and Slavonic in a column, with notes indicating what is missing or corrupted, etc, though the columns are in the original languages. I was able to download a PDF from somewhere a few years ago, though not sure where you can get it now. Charles has a lengthy introduction explaining about the texts and their influences.

There's only a few passages relevant to the mythicism debate. As I said, all 3 extant versions have a 'prophecy' about the Beloved appearing in the world in human form and being crucified on a tree, and all 3 extant versions describe the Beloved being in the world, dwelling amongst men. There is absolutely no room for a crucifixion above the earth since the only place the Beloved is in human form is on earth. Above the earth, he is in the form of the creatures of that region.

Thanks' G'Don. I'm not so much interested in this from a mythicist point of view: just from literary and semantics points of views, especially the use of cross and crucifixion (and variations of them)
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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GakuseiDon wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 2:16 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:41 am No, according to the Ascension of Isaiah, the angels and demons didn't have human form. Read it for yourself! In the firmament, they (and the Beloved) have the form of firmament creatures; in the air, they (and the Beloved) have the form of air creatures.
put it in this way: they have, in different degrees, a humanoid form: not really human. Just as the Son has the form and only the form "of men".
The pocket gospel insists on their being "the sons of Israel" implying, by contrast, that in the previous form "they" are the other demons in the service of the "god of that world".
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by Giuseppe »

It would make no sense at all assuming 'human beings' behind the expression 'they' when the anonymous form is by default a pointer to their demonic character. Demons are (more probably) anonymous, not the Jews nor Pilate nor King Herod.

Human beings have usually an identity, even more so when they work as intermediaries. What is the name of 'they' ? It doesn't exist because they are demons.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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Giuseppe, PLEASE understand what the Vision of Isaiah actually says before doing your analysis. It's very clear: in the S/L2 versions, it says that:

1. When the Beloved has descended and been made in "your [Isaiah's] form", the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is. This is followed by:
2. The Beloved descends into the firmament, where he takes on the form of firmament creatures, i.e. he and the demons are NOT HUMAN
3. The Beloved descends into the air, where he takes on the form of air creatures, i.e. he and the demons are NOT HUMAN
3. THE ONLY TIME THE VISION SHOWS THE BELOVED IN HUMAN FORM IS ON EARTH, DWELLING AMONGST MEN.
4. Then we have missing text.

Now, if you want to propose that in the missing text the demons were on earth and they crucified the Beloved there, that is possible. (Earlier in AoI, Beliar descends and becomes Nero to persecute the apostles, for example). BUT THE HANGING ON THE TREE WAS ALMOST CERTAINLY DONE ON EARTH. No crucifixion in the air or in the firmament is hinted at in any extant version of the AoI.

That's the bottom line. Please start from what the texts actually say before deciding what they might have said.
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:03 am It would make no sense at all assuming 'human beings' behind the expression 'they' when the anonymous form is by default a pointer to their demonic character. Demons are (more probably) anonymous, not the Jews nor Pilate nor King Herod.
Well, you've said sillier things (I guess I have as well). But the "they" matches whatever is happening on earth.

So:
  • In the firmament -- the Beloved and demons are in form of firmament creatures
  • In the air - the Beloved and demons are in form of air creatures
  • On earth - the Beloved is in human form dwelling amongst men.
I'd say it's almost certain that the missing text has humans hanging the Beloved on a tree. BUT, if it was done by demons in the form of humans, it amounts to the same thing, I'd think. Humans would have thought to have been the apparent agents.

Out of interest, the Ethiopic version with the pocket gospel in Chap 11 has:

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html
19. And after this the adversary envied Him and roused the children of Israel against Him, not knowing who He was, and they delivered Him to the king, and crucified Him, and He descended to the angel (of Sheol).

Very similar to what we see in the Vision 'prophecy', which says that the god of that world will stretch out his hand and "they" will hang him on a tree, not knowing who he is.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by Giuseppe »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:00 am 3. THE ONLY TIME THE VISION SHOWS THE BELOVED IN HUMAN FORM IS ON EARTH, DWELLING AMONGST MEN.
Please don't increase the voice (= the upper characters).
"Dwelling amongst men" doesn't imply ipso facto that the killers are humans, too. In addition, the "dwelling" may refer to the action of the Risen Son. I don't understand why you insist on that verse, given the fact that I have given already my reason (it is only one) to assume an earthly location for the crucifixion: the fact that the cross is a mere tree and is not able to crucify the entire world, differently from Galatians 6:14 1 Corinthians 1:18.

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:00 am Now, if you want to propose that in the missing text the demons were on earth and they crucified the Beloved there, that is possible. (Earlier in AoI, Beliar descends and becomes Nero to persecute the apostles, for example).
you have given a good example: "Nero" is a name for the human intermediary. Where is the name for the "they" who kill the Son ? They don't have one because they are demons. Isn't it the more economical explanation?
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:00 am BUT THE HANGING ON THE TREE WAS ALMOST CERTAINLY DONE ON EARTH. No crucifixion in the air or in the firmament is hinted at in any extant version of the AoI.
I agree but only in virtue of the my argument: that the cross has no cosmic proportions in the Ascension of Isaiah, differently from the cross in Paul.

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:00 am
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 1:03 am It would make no sense at all assuming 'human beings' behind the expression 'they' when the anonymous form is by default a pointer to their demonic character. Demons are (more probably) anonymous, not the Jews nor Pilate nor King Herod.
Well, you've said sillier things (I guess I have as well). But the "they" matches whatever is happening on earth.
it is not at all "silly" to say that the anonymity fits better the demons than humans, even more so when the intermediaries have to be named, if their identity (or nature) has to be distinct from that of the principal subject ("the god of that world").
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:07 am
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:00 am 3. THE ONLY TIME THE VISION SHOWS THE BELOVED IN HUMAN FORM IS ON EARTH, DWELLING AMONGST MEN.
Please don't increase the voice (= the upper characters).
My apologies. I get frustrated when you start making comments about the text without taking into consideration what is already in the text. You need to start the analysis from what the actual text says.
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:07 am"Dwelling amongst men" doesn't imply ipso facto that the killers are humans, too.
Yes, it does indeed imply the killers are humans when working from the context of the text.

Please answer the following questions, using the extant versions of the text of the Vision of Isaiah:

1. Where are the demons, and in what form are they in, according to the texts?
2. Where is the Beloved, and in what form is he in when he is hung on a tree?
2. Where are the humans?

The implication is that the Beloved was hung on a tree, on earth, by humans. That's coming from the text.

Now, there is wriggle room because in the S/L2 texts there is missing text after the Beloved is on earth. So fair enough if you want to propose, for example, demons came down to earth and did the hanging. But at least acknowledge what is in the text!
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:07 amIn addition, the "dwelling" may refer to the action of the Risen Son.
According to the text itself, the Beloved makes it to earth without being crucified/hung on a tree. That's what the texts tell us. So in the S/L2 texts, the crucifixion appears to happen after the Beloved is on earth.

Now again, you may have your own analysis about what is happening. Perhaps there has been corruption to the text. That happens. But you are reconstructing the text without acknowledging what is there in the first place: the Beloved has made it to earth, in human form, without being hung on a tree.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:48 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:07 am"Dwelling amongst men" doesn't imply ipso facto that the killers are humans, too.
Yes, it does indeed imply the killers are humans when working from the context of the text.
have you at least answered to Carrier's argument that the "Dwelling amongst men" refers to the earthly sojourn of the Risen Son?

Please answer the following questions, using the extant versions of the text of the Vision of Isaiah:
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:48 pm 1. Where are the demons, and in what form are they in, according to the texts?
2. Where is the Beloved, and in what form is he in when he is hung on a tree?
2. Where are the humans?
  • 1. The demons are "they" because "they" are completely anonymous (usually, human intermediaries are called by name, cf. Nero possessed by Belial). The demons are in a spiritual form.
  • 2. The Son may be on the earth, he is in the form of men (cf. the hymn to Philippians), and the tree is surely not a cosmic Stauros, differently from the cross of Galatians 6:14.
  • 3. The humans are joined by the Beloved only after he is risen. Even then, they are supposed to be only the first Christian apostles. No independent witness.
Good night.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:59 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:48 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:07 am"Dwelling amongst men" doesn't imply ipso facto that the killers are humans, too.
Yes, it does indeed imply the killers are humans when working from the context of the text.
have you at least answered to Carrier's argument that the "Dwelling amongst men" refers to the earthly sojourn of the Risen Son?
Yes, by actually reading the text. The S/L2 texts show the Beloved descending down into the firmament, then down into the air, then down onto the earth. There is simply no room for a hanging on a tree in that particular descent from the firmament down onto earth. So the Beloved is "dwelling amongst men" BEFORE being hung on a tree.

That's what the text explicitly says.

Again, you can propose there is corruption to the text there. But the S/L2 texts, AS WE HAVE IT, shows the Beloved descending to earth, dwelling amongst men in the form of a human, without (at that point) being hung on a tree. After that, there is missing text. We can debate what was in the missing text, no problem about that. But if you propose that the "dwelling amongst men" takes place AFTER death, then you are ignoring what the text actually says.

Giuseppe, just trace it out. Make a chart of the descent, showing the form of the Beloved at each level, the form of the demons at each level, and it becomes clear.
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:59 pmPlease answer the following questions, using the extant versions of the text of the Vision of Isaiah:
  • 1. The demons are "they" because "they" are completely anonymous (usually, human intermediaries are called by name, cf. Nero possessed by Belial). The demons are in a spiritual form.
  • 2. The Son may be on the earth, he is in the form of men (cf. the hymn to Philippians), and the tree is surely not a cosmic Stauros, differently from the cross of Galatians 6:14.
  • 3. The humans are joined by the Beloved only after he is risen. Even then, they are supposed to be only the first Christian apostles. No independent witness.
1. It's an interesting point. I think it is very weak myself, but perhaps it's an approach that might be useful.
2. I agree with you. There is no significance to the tree in AoI, while there is significance given to the cross in Gal 6:14.
3. The text simply doesn't support it, as per my response above. You aren't working from the text. You can say the text is corrupted if you like, but at least start your analysis by acknowledging what is explicitly in the text.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:48 pm Please answer the following questions, using the extant versions of the text of the Vision of Isaiah:

1. Where are the demons, and in what form are they in, according to the texts?
Do you happen to know what the earliest texts actually say:
whether (a) "demons" or (b) "daemons" (Latin) / "daimons" (Greek)?

(a) have negative connotations whereas (b) - representing the personal (or guardian) spirit of life in Stoic and Platonist philosophical literature - are neutral
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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Leucius Charinus wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:56 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:48 pm Please answer the following questions, using the extant versions of the text of the Vision of Isaiah:

1. Where are the demons, and in what form are they in, according to the texts?
Do you happen to know what the earliest texts actually say:
whether (a) "demons" or (b) "daemons" (Latin) / "daimons" (Greek)?

(a) have negative connotations whereas (b) - representing the personal (or guardian) spirit of life in Stoic and Platonist philosophical literature - are neutral
The texts never use the word "daemon" at all. In the firmament, the Beloved's form is described as "his form was like theirs". Elsewhere the creatures at each level are described as "angelos".

For example, when he descends from the firmament into the air, they are described as "angels [angelos] of the air".

Latin2: Chap 10:30
Et descendit ad angelos, qui erant in hoc aere, sicut unus ex eis.
And he descended to the angels who were in this air, as one of them.

And then, in the very next passage, it describes the Beloved as being in the form of a man, dwelling amongst men. No room for a crucifixion between the air and the earth, as suggested by Dr Carrier. That part seems to happen in the missing text, which follows immediately after the Beloved has reached earth.
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