The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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Leucius Charinus
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by Leucius Charinus »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 6:57 pm
Leucius Charinus wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 3:56 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:48 pm Please answer the following questions, using the extant versions of the text of the Vision of Isaiah:

1. Where are the demons, and in what form are they in, according to the texts?
Do you happen to know what the earliest texts actually say:
whether (a) "demons" or (b) "daemons" (Latin) / "daimons" (Greek)?

(a) have negative connotations whereas (b) - representing the personal (or guardian) spirit of life in Stoic and Platonist philosophical literature - are neutral
The texts never use the word "daemon" at all. In the firmament, the Beloved's form is described as "his form was like theirs". Elsewhere the creatures at each level are described as "angelos".

For example, when he descends from the firmament into the air, they are described as "angels [angelos] of the air".

Latin2: Chap 10:30
Et descendit ad angelos, qui erant in hoc aere, sicut unus ex eis.
And he descended to the angels who were in this air, as one of them.

And then, in the very next passage, it describes the Beloved as being in the form of a man, dwelling amongst men. No room for a crucifixion between the air and the earth, as suggested by Dr Carrier. That part seems to happen in the missing text, which follows immediately after the Beloved has reached earth.
Thanks for that. I found this quote from OHJ:
God clearly intends Jesus to do nothing more than go to the firmament, and for no other reason than to be killed by Satan and his sky demons, rise from the dead and conduct affairs there for over a year (doing what, it's not said), and then ascend to heaven. In other words, instead of conducting a ministry on earth, Jesus is commanded to go straight to the end and die, and rise from the dead, and then remain where he had for a year and a half (9.16; cf. 10.12-14; although the duration is omitted in some versions), and then ascend to the heavens. The 'tree' on which is crucified (9.14) is thus implied to be one of the 'copies' of trees that we are told are in the firmament (7.10). (page 41 OHJ)
So I was wondering why Carrier introduced these "sky demons".

FWIW I don't buy Carrier's (and Doherty's) idea that The Ascension of Isaiah is early. It easily sits beside many texts in the Nag Hammadi Library with its many layered heavens, ascensions and the use of passwords provided to "angels at the gates". Also I don't see how an earthly crucifixion can be avoided after descent through the seven heavens and the subsequent re-ascension.

One argument I see for an earthly crucifixion is that the resurrection scene features a sepulcher. Also the resurrection scene is closely mirrored in the Gospel of Peter where the cross walks and talks.
Ascensionof Isaiah wrote: 15. And the descent of the angel of the Christian Church, which is in the heavens, whom He will summon in the last days.

16. And that (Gabriel) the angel of the Holy Spirit, and Michael, the chief of the holy angels, on the third day will open the sepulchre:

17. And the Beloved sitting on their shoulders will come forth and send out His twelve disciples;

18. And they will teach all the nations and every tongue of the resurrection of the Beloved, and those who believe in His cross will be saved, and in His ascension into the seventh heaven whence He came:

19. And that many who believe in Him will speak through the Holy Spirit
Compared with:
Gospel of Peter wrote: [36] and they saw that the heavens were opened and that two males who had much radiance had come down from there and come near the sepulchre.

[37] But that stone which had been thrust against the door, having rolled by itself, went a distance off the side; and the sepulcher opened, and both the young men entered.

[38] And so those soldiers, having seen, awakened the centurion and the elders (for they too were present, safeguarding).

[39] And while they were relating what they had seen, again they see three males who have come out from the sepulchre, with the two supporting the other one, and a cross following them,

[40] and the head of the two reaching unto heaven, but that of the one being led out by a hand by them going beyond the heavens.

[41] And they were hearing a voice from the heavens saying, 'Have you made proclamation to the fallen-asleep?'

[42] And an obeisance was heard from the cross, 'Yes.'
I don't understand why anyone would think any of these writings are anything other than completely fictional accounts.
Giuseppe
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by Giuseppe »

GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 2:19 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:59 pm
GakuseiDon wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 12:48 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Sat Dec 03, 2022 4:07 am"Dwelling amongst men" doesn't imply ipso facto that the killers are humans, too.
Yes, it does indeed imply the killers are humans when working from the context of the text.
have you at least answered to Carrier's argument that the "Dwelling amongst men" refers to the earthly sojourn of the Risen Son?
Yes, by actually reading the text. The S/L2 texts show the Beloved descending down into the firmament, then down into the air, then down onto the earth. There is simply no room for a hanging on a tree in that particular descent from the firmament down onto earth. So the Beloved is "dwelling amongst men" BEFORE being hung on a tree.
I don't claim more to insist that the Ascension of Isaiah places the crucifixion in heaven, since I would place fifty-fifty about the reference of "dwelling amongst men", if to the Risen Son or to the Son before the death. Far from me a such arrogance.

My point wants to be more modestly that "they", being anonymous, are more simply anonymous just as anonymous is "the god of that world", who is also without name, hence probably the former share the latter's demonic nature. It is a mere exercise in probability. Even if the Son was seen by men during his presumed preaching on the earth (if you insist in wanting to interpret the "dwelling amongst men" as a long period preceding the death, at the end he was killed only by demons, because "they" are demons, sic et simpliciter.

So the Ascension of Isaiah is a poor historicist text with only this "defect": being the killers only demons, then it raises an intriguing question about what there was before.
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