The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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Giuseppe
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The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by Giuseppe »

Because there is no trace of a cross as symbol of cosmic power, in the Ascension of Isaiah. The cross is only a tree where a corpse is hanged.
Only the demons as killers are left as a trace of a previous celestial crucifixion myth.


At contrary, the cross is "power of God" in 1 Corinthians 1:224. Paul is "crucified with Christ" insofar he has ascended until to third heaven (accordingly, he had to go through the celestial limit/Stauros/Horos, the same cross on which Jesus was crucified on during his descent.)
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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Giuseppe wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:53 am Because there is no trace of a cross as symbol of cosmic power, in the Ascension of Isaiah. The cross is only a tree where a corpse is hanged.
It's a good observation. There are no progressions of aeons, no gnostic imagery of a Sophia or a Demiurge, no cosmic rescue mission. Just a straight-forward descent through the seven heavens, down into the firmament, etc. Maybe that goes hand-in-hand with a crucifixion set on earth? Interesting point.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:30 am
Giuseppe wrote: Wed Nov 30, 2022 11:53 am Because there is no trace of a cross as symbol of cosmic power, in the Ascension of Isaiah. The cross is only a tree where a corpse is hanged.
It's a good observation. There are no progressions of aeons, no gnostic imagery of a Sophia or a Demiurge, no cosmic rescue mission. Just a straight-forward descent through the seven heavens, down into the firmament, etc. Maybe that goes hand-in-hand with a crucifixion set on earth? Interesting point.
you can accept my argument fully only insofar you recognize that, at contrary, in Paul the cross is a symbol of cosmic power. Or, to use the your apt expression, "a cosmic rescue mission".
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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The celestial cross was placed by Plato in the intersection of the celestial equator with the ecliptic. It was the cosmic cross read by the Valentinians in Paul and probably reflecting faithfully his view of a cross that is "the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Cor 1:23-24).

Differently from Constantin, who according to the Eusebian propaganda saw only a sign of a cross in heaven ("In hoc signo vinces") , in Paul and among Valentinians the cosmic Stauros in heaven was real, not a mere symbol.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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Giuseppe wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:39 amyou can accept my argument fully only insofar you recognize that, at contrary, in Paul the cross is a symbol of cosmic power. Or, to use the your apt expression, "a cosmic rescue mission".
No, I don't accept your argument fully. The AoI has the Beloved being crucified in human form, and the Beloved is in human form only when dwelling amongst men. So the Beloved was crucified on earth, explicitly by men in the Ethiopic and implicitly by men in the Slavonic/L2. As Dr Robert Price mentioned in the video you posted in the other thread, he's read through the AoI many times and there is nothing in the AoI that supports Dr Carrier's views.

Still, you pointed out the lack of the "cosmic" stuff we see in gnostic writings, which I think is an interesting point. I thought it a good observation worth acknowledging.

But I don't see the cross as a symbol of cosmic power in Paul's wrtings. It's the suffering through the crucifixion that is important, the humbling, the obedience that went into that. Paul being crucified in Christ represents his intent to have the same mind as Christ. It isn't until later that the cross becomes a focus of mysticism and magic. At least, that's my reading, not that it is worth much! If you have passages beyond 1 Cor 1:24 that suggests that the cross is a symbol of cosmic power for Paul, I'm happy to be convinced.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 12:53 am The celestial cross was placed by Plato in the intersection of the celestial equator with the ecliptic. It was the cosmic cross read by the Valentinians in Paul and probably reflecting faithfully his view of a cross that is "the power of God and the wisdom of God" (1 Cor 1:23-24).
This is 1 Cor 1:23-24:

1 Cor 1:23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness;
24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.


It's "Christ crucified" that is the power of God, not the cross. There's nothing mystical about the shape of the cross in Paul. That comes later, like in Justin Martyr's view of Plato's X. You are reading that back into Paul.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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The cross is adored in Paul in the passages where (I go to memory) he says that the law has been nailed on the cross, he says that he has been crucified with Christ, he says that the crucifixion is a mystery hidden from a long time, etc. Paul doesn't say "the death of Christ" but "the crucifixion of Christ", meaning that the form of death is not a historical contingence, but assumes per se a more great meaning.

The Valentinians pointed out to specific Paul's passages as evidence of their celestial Stauros. There is not difference between "Christ crucified" and the "cross" in Paul and among Valentinians: they are one and the same.

The epistles of Colossians and Ephesians, even if not written by Paul, reflect more faithfully his original thinking, if one existed, about the cosmic dimension of the crucifixion, than the more late Catholic epistles.

In the Ascension of Isaiah the cross is only a tree, while in Paul the "tree" of the cross is never mentioned because the cross is cosmic, celestial, not resembling at all to an earthly cross.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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P.S. note that even if the Ascension of Isaiah has reduced the cross to mere earthly proportions (a "tree"), it has not made so with the killers: they are still the demons in perfect continuity with the original myth.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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A strong evidence supporting my point comes just from 1 Corinthians 2:6-8:
The use of the expression "Lord of Glory" in a context that was expected to talk rather about sufferings and death.

Jesus is the "Lord of Glory" in the precise moment when he is crucified.

Isn't this sufficient to talk about a cosmic cross in Paul?

Really, it is one of the reasons that have obliged prof Arthur Droge to reject the entire passage 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 as a Valentinian interpolation!

I have confessed more times that if really 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 is an interpolation, then I would delete all my posts on the net. :D
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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Giuseppe wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:42 am P.S. note that even if the Ascension of Isaiah has reduced the cross to mere earthly proportions (a "tree"), it has not made so with the killers: they are still the demons in perfect continuity with the original myth.
This is simply wrong. There are no "demon killers" in any extant versions of AoI. In 9.13-14, the Slavonic/L2 has that the Beloved will descend until in "your [human] form" and then Satan will stretch out his hand and "they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is".

So, who are the "they"? This can be inferred from where the Beloved is when he is in human form, and he is in human form when he is "dwelling amongst men". He's not in human form when he descends into the firmament, he's not in human form when he descends into the air. He is only in human form when dwelling amongst men, obviously on earth. At that point we have missing text in S/L2, but the implication is that the crucifixion takes place there, based on 9:13-14.

You might argue that demons crucified him while he dwelt among men on earth, but it isn't the obvious conclusion. If you want to make the CLEARLY WRONG claim that the AoI has the killers as "demons", at least put an asterisk on the statement to say it is your own personal reading.
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