The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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GakuseiDon
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by GakuseiDon »

Giuseppe wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:38 am The cross is adored in Paul in the passages where (I go to memory) he says that the law has been nailed on the cross, he says that he has been crucified with Christ, he says that the crucifixion is a mystery hidden from a long time, etc. Paul doesn't say "the death of Christ" but "the crucifixion of Christ", meaning that the form of death is not a historical contingence, but assumes per se a more great meaning.
Those aren't examples of "adoration of the cross" in Paul. Adoration of the crucifixion perhaps, but not of the cross.
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:38 amThe Valentinians pointed out to specific Paul's passages as evidence of their celestial Stauros. There is not difference between "Christ crucified" and the "cross" in Paul and among Valentinians: they are one and the same.
The cross itself gained significance after Paul. But not in Paul. Again, I'm happy to be proven wrong on that.
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MrMacSon
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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From an English version of the Ascension of Isaiah
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html

3:13,18


8. And Isaiah himself hath said: `I see more than Moses the prophet.'

9. But Moses said: `No man can see God and live'; and Isaiah hath said: `I have seen God and behold I live.'

10. Know, therefore, O king, that he is lying. And Jerusalem also he hath called Sodom, and the princes of Judah and Jerusalem he hath declared to be the people of Gomorrah. And he brought many accusations against Isaiah and the prophets before Manasseh.

11. But Beliar dwelt in the heart of Manasseh and in the heart of the princes of Judah and Benjamin and of the eunuchs and of the councillors of the king.

12. And the words of Belchira pleased him [exceedingly], and he sent and seized Isaiah.


13. For Beliar was in great wrath against Isaiah by reason of the vision, and because of the exposure wherewith he had exposed Sammael, and because through him the going forth of the Beloved from the seventh heaven had been made known, and His transformation and His descent and the likeness into which He should be transformed: (that is) the likeness of man; and the persecution wherewith he should be persecuted ... the children of Israel should torture Him ... He should before the Sabbath be crucified upon the tree, and should be crucified together with wicked men, and that He should be buried in the sepulchre,

14. And the twelve who were with Him should be offended because of Him: and the watch of those who watched the sepulchre:

15. And
the descent of the angel of the Christian Church, which is in the heavens, whom He will summon in the last days.

16. And that (Gabriel) the angel of the Holy Spirit, and Michael, the chief of the holy angels, on the third day will open the sepulchre:

17. And the Beloved sitting on their shoulders will come forth and send out His twelve disciples;

18. And they will teach all the nations and every tongue of the resurrection of the Beloved, and those who believe in His cross will be saved, and in His ascension into the seventh heaven whence He came:

19. And that many who believe in Him will speak through the Holy Spirit



9:14,26


11. And I asked the angel who was with me: "How is it that they have received the garments, but have not the thrones and the crowns?"

12. And he said unto me: "Crowns and thrones of glory they do not receive, till the Beloved will descent in the form in which you will see Him descent [will descent, I say] into the world in the last days the Lord, who will be called Christ.

13. Nevertheless they see and know whose will be thrones, and whose the crowns when He has descended and been made in your form, and they will think that He is flesh and is a man.


14. And the god of that world will stretch forth his hand against the Son, and they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is.

15. And thus His descent, as you will see, will be hidden even from the heavens, so that it will not be known who He is.

16. And when He hath plundered the angel of death, He will ascend on the third day, [and he will remain in that world five hundred and forty-five days].

17. And then many of the righteous will ascend with Him, whose spirits do not receive their garments till the Lord Christ ascend and they ascend with Him.

18. Then indeed they will receive their [garments and] thrones and crowns, when He has ascended into the seventh heaven."

19. And I said unto him that which I had asked him in the third heaven:

20. "Show me how everything which is done in that world is here made known."

21. And whilst I was still speaking with him, behold one of the angels who stood nigh, more glorious than the glory of that angel, who had raised me up from the world

22. Showed me a book, [but not as a book of this world] and he opened it, and the book was written, but not as a book of this world. And he gave (it) to me and I read it, and lo! the deeds of the children of Israel were written therein, and the deeds of those whom I know (not), my son Josab.

23. And I said: "In truth, there is nothing hidden in the seventh heaven, which is done in this world."

24. And I saw there many garments laid up, and many thrones and many crowns.

25. And I said to the angel: "Whose are these garments and thrones and crowns?"


26. And he said unto me: "These garments many from that world will receive, believing in the words of That One, who shall be named as I told thee, and they will observe those things, and believe in them, and believe in His cross: for them are these laid up."

27. And I saw a certain One standing, whose glory surpassed that of all, and His glory was great and wonderful




11:20


17. And I saw: In Nazareth He sucked the breast as a babe and as is customary in order that He might not be recognized.

18. And when He had grown up he worked great signs and wonders in the land of Israel and of Jerusalem.

19. And after this the adversary envied Him and roused the children of Israel against Him, not knowing who He was, and
they delivered Him to the king, and crucified Him, and He descended to the angel (of Sheol).

20. In Jerusalem indeed I was Him being crucified on a tree:

21. And likewise after the third day rise again and remain days.

22. And the angel who conducted me said: "Understand, Isaiah": and I saw when He sent out the Twelve Apostles and ascended.

23. And I saw Him, and He was in the firmament, but He had not changed Himself into their form, and all the angels of the firmament and the Satans saw Him and they worshipped.



"believe in His cross"

eta:
Neil Godfrey has addressed crucifixion and cross in the A.o.I in at least three posts in his Vridar series on the A.o.I
Last edited by MrMacSon on Sat Dec 03, 2022 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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GakuseiDon
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:31 pm From an English version of the Ascension of Isaiah
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html
MrMacSon, there are 3 extant texts of the AoI: Ethiopic (which contains the story about Nero persecuting the apostles and the pocket gospel) and the Latin2/Slavonic (which don't, and is mainly about the Vision of Isaiah). So it's best to cite which text you are working from when reproducing passages from the AoI.

The bottom line is: all 3 texts claim (as a "vision" of the future) that the Beloved will descend in Isaiah's form (i.e. human form) and will be crucified on a tree by "they" "in mundo" (on earth). In all 3 texts the Beloved appears on earth in human form, dwelling amongst men. In none of the texts is the Beloved in human form above the world. He is in the form of firmament creatures when he descends to the firmament; he is in the form of air creatures when he descends to the air; finally he is in the form of humans on earth.

In the Ethiopic, he is crucified on a tree on earth as part of the pocket gospel.

In the L2/S versions, he reaches earth, in human form, dwelling amongst men "in mundo" (on earth). Then there is missing text (which, in the Ethiopic, is where the pocket gospel is located), and then it describes the Beloved rising into the firmament in glory. Given the earlier 'vision of the future', the Beloved being crucified on a tree can be assumed to be part of the missing text.

Could the missing text have had the Beloved rise again into the air in human form and been crucified by demons? I guess. But far more likely to assume crucifixion in human form by humans on earth. (I'll note that Ben C Smith has floated the idea that the Beloved descended to the Angel of Death in the underworld and was crucified by demons there as an option, following the myth of Inanna's descent into the underworld).
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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crucify/crucified is mentioned 7 times in the http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html version of the Ascension of Isaiah

Five are in my post above. The other two are in

14:13

And many believers and saints having seen Him for whom they were hoping, who was crucified, Jesus the Lord Christ, [after that I, Isaiah, had seen Him who was crucified and ascended] and those also who were believers in Him - of these, few in those days will be left as His servants, while they flee from desert to desert, awaiting the coming of the Beloved.

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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 6:33 pm
MrMacSon wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 2:31 pm From an English version of the Ascension of Isaiah
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/t ... nsion.html
MrMacSon, there are 3 extant texts of the AoI: Ethiopic (which contains the story about Nero persecuting the apostles and the pocket gospel) and the Latin2/Slavonic (which don't, and is mainly about the Vision of Isaiah). So it's best to cite which text you are working from when reproducing passages from the AoI.

The bottom line is: all 3 texts claim (as a "vision" of the future) that the Beloved will descend in Isaiah's form (i.e. human form) and will be crucified on a tree by "they" "in mundo" (on earth). In all 3 texts the Beloved appears on earth in human form, dwelling amongst men. In none of the texts is the Beloved in human form above the world. He is in the form of firmament creatures when he descends to the firmament; he is in the form of air creatures when he descends to the air; finally he is in the form of humans on earth.

In the Ethiopic, he is crucified on a tree on earth as part of the pocket gospel.

In the L2/S versions, he reaches earth, in human form, dwelling amongst men "in mundo" (on earth). Then there is missing text (which, in the Ethiopic, is where the pocket gospel is located), and then it describes the Beloved rising into the firmament in glory. Given the earlier 'vision of the future', the Beloved being crucified on a tree can be assumed to be part of the missing text.

Could the missing text have had the Beloved rise again into the air in human form and been crucified by demons? I guess. But far more likely to assume crucifixion in human form by humans on earth. (I'll note that Ben C Smith has floated the idea that the Beloved descended to the Angel of Death in the underworld and was crucified by demons there as an option, following the myth of Inanna's descent into the underworld).

  • Has anyone done a [long] three-column table of all three texts showing the similarities and differences?
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:51 pm Those aren't examples of "adoration of the cross" in Paul. Adoration of the crucifixion perhaps, but not of the cross.
that difference doesn't hold. The cross deserves adoration only when Christ is crucified on it. In alternative, the celesrial Limit deserves adoration only when Christ descends through it.

Prof Arthur Droge agrees with me that 1 Corinthians 2:6-8 is better interpreted if one wears Valentinian lens, i.e. by conceiving the crucifixion as a celestial crucifixion.

The case has been already made.

As to Asc of Isaiah, there is even doubt if the "king" who is meant is a demon or a man.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by GakuseiDon »

MrMacSon wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 7:35 pmHas anyone done a [long] three-column table of all three texts showing the similarities and differences?
R.H. Charles' "Ascension of Isaiah" (1900) has a list showing the Ethiopic, L1, L2 and Slavonic in a column, with notes indicating what is missing or corrupted, etc, though the columns are in the original languages. I was able to download a PDF from somewhere a few years ago, though not sure where you can get it now. Charles has a lengthy introduction explaining about the texts and their influences.

There's only a few passages relevant to the mythicism debate. As I said, all 3 extant versions have a 'prophecy' about the Beloved appearing in the world in human form and being crucified on a tree, and all 3 extant versions describe the Beloved being in the world, dwelling amongst men. There is absolutely no room for a crucifixion above the earth since the only place the Beloved is in human form is on earth. Above the earth, he is in the form of the creatures of that region.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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GakuseiDon wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 1:39 pm
Giuseppe wrote: Thu Dec 01, 2022 4:42 am P.S. note that even if the Ascension of Isaiah has reduced the cross to mere earthly proportions (a "tree"), it has not made so with the killers: they are still the demons in perfect continuity with the original myth.
This is simply wrong. There are no "demon killers" in any extant versions of AoI. In 9.13-14, the Slavonic/L2 has that the Beloved will descend until in "your [human] form" and then Satan will stretch out his hand and "they will crucify Him on a tree, and will slay Him not knowing who He is".

So, who are the "they"? This can be inferred from where the Beloved is when he is in human form, and he is in human form when he is "dwelling amongst men". He's not in human form when he descends into the firmament, he's not in human form when he descends into the air. He is only in human form when dwelling amongst men, obviously on earth. At that point we have missing text in S/L2, but the implication is that the crucifixion takes place there, based on 9:13-14.

You might argue that demons crucified him while he dwelt among men on earth, but it isn't the obvious conclusion. If you want to make the CLEARLY WRONG claim that the AoI has the killers as "demons", at least put an asterisk on the statement to say it is your own personal reading.
According to you, then, the angels and demons have not a human form, despite of their actions also on earth: absurd.

In Paul Jesus is an angel per Bart Ehrman. If an angel has a human form, so also an evil angel, i.e. a demon, has it.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

Post by Giuseppe »

It has to be pointed out also that prof Arthur Droge has the Ascension of Isaiah based on a previous myth of a celestial crucifixion by demons in outer space, as reflected in 1 Corinthians 2:6-8.

According to prof Droge, then, the outer space context may be also in Ascension of Isaiah. I doubt it is since the cross is reduced to a mere tree in the Ascension of Isaiah, while the killers continue to be clearly demons, pace GDon. In Paul, Jesus is "the Lord of Glory" precisely when he is on the cross, implying so that the cross is a symbol of cosmic power, which ceases to be true in the Ascension of Isaiah.
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Re: The basic reason why the Ascension of Isaiah has an earthly crucifixion

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Giuseppe wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:41 amAccording to you, then, the angels and demons have not a human form, despite of their actions also on earth: absurd.
No, according to the Ascension of Isaiah, the angels and demons didn't have human form. Read it for yourself! In the firmament, they (and the Beloved) have the form of firmament creatures; in the air, they (and the Beloved) have the form of air creatures. Finally the S/L2 text has the Beloved in human form dwelling among men. The earlier stated 'prophecy' says that the Beloved will be hung on a tree while in human form, so it appears that the Beloved being hung on a tree on earth is part of the missing text in S/L2.

If you want to claim that there is an earlier unknown version where the Beloved is in the air in human form, then at least note that you are pulling this from the air (pun intended!) The extant texts are clear. It's why you can see Dr Price being exasperated about Dr Carrier's reading on that video, saying he's gone over the AoI many times and can't find anything to support Carrier's readings.
Giuseppe wrote: Fri Dec 02, 2022 4:41 amIn Paul Jesus is an angel per Bart Ehrman. If an angel has a human form, so also an evil angel, i.e. a demon, has it.
Granted, but please start your analysis from the AoI. Are there any demons listed in human form above the earth in the AoI? No! What form are they in and where are they according to the Vision of Isaiah? Explicitly not in human form and explicitly not on earth! We have the AoI's explicit statements on that. Where is the Beloved when he is in human form? On earth, dwelling amongst men. Explicitly!

Editted to add: Explicitly! Explicitly!
Last edited by GakuseiDon on Fri Dec 02, 2022 8:06 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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